Do powerline adapters work during a power cut?

On 22/05/2020 15:20, The Natural Philosopher wrote:


75 ohm coax is better in terms of attenuation characteristics but not so good in terms of power handling.
While isn't used, 30 ohm coax would be better for power handling but offers poor attenuation performance.
50 ohm is a compromise between power handling and attention.
If I remember the history, 75 ohm was the early choice (from dipoles - it is near to the 72 ohm of the feed point Z of ideal dipole in free space) but, in about 1930, someone worked out the power handling/attenuation trade off and 50 ohm became a new standard, or at least an alternative.
--

https://www.unitedway.org/our-impact/featured-programs/end-human-trafficking

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
wrote:

It also stopped people trying to be smart arses and using TV cable instead of the official spec yellow cable. The point here is that the DC resistance is also important, since it is a factor in collision detection on the shared medium.
--
Tim



Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 22/05/2020 17:50, Tim Streater wrote:

I don't think so.
--
Gun Control: The law that ensures that only criminals have guns.

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
wrote:

AIUI, the bit waveforms on the cable were designed so that any no bit pattern would change the average DC voltage level (can't remember which encoding has that property - perhaps many do). But, if a collision was happening, this no longer held true, so collision detection was done by checking the DC voltage on the wire. The signal might have to propagate 500 metres, so the DC resistance shouldn't be too high else the collision detection would no longer work.
We saw this at SLAC, with Thinnet, the second iteration of coax which was then superceded by twisted pair. It was still 50 ohm, but was thinner so the length allowance was less. Some smart arse physicists didn't really understand how Ethernet worked, so they decided to lengthen one segment, the one in their building, using their own 50 ohm cable - the stuff they used in their experiment electronics - quite a long length of it. Result: collision rate went UP and therefore overall data rate went DOWN. They got a bollocking for that.
They also decided they didn't like that the Thinnet cable had T connectors in it which connected directly to the rear of the computer. They thought it would be "tidier" to add a length of cable between the T connecter and the one on the computer. For impdance reason I no longer understand, this caused the cable to present as 25 Ohm either at the computer or the T, can't remember now. Thus, many signal reflections which further degarded their segment.
Cue them calling the Operations Group, which investigated and junked their add-ons (and bollocked them). Cue amusement, later, elsewhere in the Computer Centre.
--
Tim



Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 22/05/2020 23:14, Tim Streater wrote:

Resistance plays no part in this: the length limits are based on propagation delay which was slightly greater on the thinner cable as that is what collision detection is all about,
I have no idea where you got the info in your head, but this is what really is supposed to happen.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrier-sense_multiple_access_with_collision_detection
--
“It is dangerous to be right in matters on which the established
authorities are wrong.”
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
wrote:

That article doesn't actually say very much; it's bare-bones, but it does say "On a shared, electrical bus such as 10BASE5 or 10BASE2, collisions can be detected by comparing transmitted data with received data or by recognizing a higher than normal signal amplitude on the bus." Of these two detection methods, the former would be done by the transmitter, but the latter would be the method used by listening stations.
Meanwhile I dug out this long article. In 1983 a colleague attended a DECUS meeting, and taped a talk given by Rich Seifert on "Engineering Tradeoffs in Ethernet Configurations or How to Violate the Ethernet Spec and Hopefully Get Away with It". This is a transcription of the talk, which I got a copy of and include below. If you scroll down it 180 lines or so you'll see the bit about DC resistance.
To me this is interesting as a historical note about how we did LANs in the early 80s, and the state of electronics nearly 40 years ago. It's best read using a fixed-width font.
Article follows =============The following is an approximately literal transcription of Rich Seifert's Fall 83 Decus talk on rationale behind the IEEE 802 Ethernet spec. The headings are based on the slides. The title of the talk was Engineering Tradeoffs in Ethernet Configurations or How to Violate the Ethernet Spec and Hopefully Get Away with It. by G.R.BOWER I. INTRODUCTION The assumption is that you know something about the spec. Now we'll see how you can change some of the parameters. When you design one of these there are lots of options, in fact, too many. You have to chose how long, how fast, how many, how close together, how far apart, what performance, how many users, how many buildings, how long to ship the product, how much does it cost? You have to make trade-offs among network length, speed, performance, cost, satisfying your boss, shipping the product on time. The important thing is to standardize all the critical parameters so everyone agrees to the groundrules so that you can have compatibility between products. Remember the intent is to design a network that is open, where you publish the specs and you let everyone connect to the network and you tell them exactly how to do it. You tell them how to design a transceiver. You want everyone to make products. It's not that we are encouraging competition but we want the market to be bigger for all of us. To do that you must worst case the specs so that no matter how they are applied the system still works. You don't want to give someone enough coax cable to hang themselves. It's like squeezing a sausage, you can pull in the specs one place but they pop out somewhere else. You are trading off among interacting parameters. You can't make independent decisions about the minimum and maximum packet size and the maximum cable length. Or the cable length and the propagation delay. You have to deal with all these things in one giant sausage. II. DATALINK LAYER PARAMETERS. There are decisions that have to be made in both layers of the ethernet; datalink and physical. There are also decisions to be made at higher layers as well but ethernet does not address those. Datalink layer decisions will affect your network performance. The decisions as to how many bits in a crc, how many type fields, how big are the addresses, what's the minimum sized packet, what's the maximum sized packet, how many stations allowed on the network - those are datalink layer decisions. The datalink parameters you have to play with; the slot time (the maximum roundtrip time on the cable, how long to wait to know there's no collision). The longer the slot time the longer the cable can be. But if slot time is longer you're vulnerable to collision longer and that reduces performance. The interframe gap time (how long must stations be quiet after sending a packet) - You want that short to reduce idle time on the network but if it's too short it's a burden on controllers in receive mode because they have to receive packets back to back to back with no time in between with no time to recover and post their buffers and unload them through their DMA engine and get status recorded and get ready for the next packet. The frame length - I'd like a one byte minimum frame so I can send one byte without padding but if I do that I can't have a very long network and detect collisions. For crc I'd like guaranteed error detection, a very robust algorithm, 32 bits or better. But 32 bits takes up more bits than 16 bit crc and it's much more complicated to implement, it takes more chips. In VLSI that's not a big problem but the first products were not made in VLSI. The backoff limits - how long do I keep backing off before I give up. If I backoff for ever service time goes out the roof. Currently backing off the maximum amount of time for 16 times would be 300 to 400 milliseconds. That's not bad but it limits the number of stations on the network believe it or not. There's a tradeoff between how far you let stations backoff and the maximum number of stations you put on the network. This session isn't going to discuss those datalink layer tradeoffs in any more detail than this. III. PHYSICAL LINK LAYER PARAMETERS. We are going to look at the physical layer. The physical layer decisions won't effect network performance so much except to the extent that physical layer decisions effect the datalink layer decisions. The datalink minimum packet size is a function of the physical length of the network. What you do in the physical layer (cable lengths, number of transceivers, speed of the network) is going to affect how you configure networks. We wanted to make the system easy to configure, so you can't hang yourself. What do you have to tradeoff in the physical layer? For starters, the speed. Remember we are designing a new network. I can make it one megabit and that makes it easy to design the product but the product life won't be very long. I can make it a 100 megabit system and be sure it will last through my lifetime but I don't want to have to design that product. I'd like the coax length to be long but cables have attenuation so I don't want them too long. I can run 10 megabits per second through a barbed wire fence for 10 miles but how much are you willing to pay for the decoder? I want transceiver cables to be long but I don't want expensive interfaces at both ends. I want lots of transceivers on the network but I don't want them to be too expensive or have noise margins go down and lose data because there are lots of transceivers and lumped loads. I want the total network length to be as long as possible but you get less performance and more delay. You have to decide where you want to be - somewhere between a computer bus and a wide area network. That's what a local area network is. It's longer and slower than a computer bus but shorter and faster than a wide area network. There's a lot of area in there for squeezing sausages. IV. SPEED. Let's look at how you decide how fast to make the network. I want it as fast as possible. I want to push the technology as far as possible and still ship on time. I want enough bandwidth to support lots of stations. If I have a megabit of bandwidth and want to hookup a thousand stations (and maybe you can electrically) that gives an aggregate bandwidth of only a kilobit per station on average. Now that may be ok for people used to 1200 baud terminals but its not what I expect when I want to do file transfers or run graphic applications. If I have 10 megabits and 1000 stations now I have an average aggregate bandwidth of 10 kilobits per station and that's probably ok averaged over time but it also says when I want that big bandwidth to move a file or fill a screen with bits, it happens very quickly. Unfortunately I also have to design transceivers and VLSI coder/decoders and cables and it makes that job easier if its a slower product. I can design simpler devices if I don't worry about fancy filtering, I don't worry about cutoff frequencies of transistors, or cable attenuation at slow speeds. That's why you can run one megabit DMR cables long distances - because they are a tenth the speed of an ethernet. Those are the tradeoffs and I've always got cost to consider. You don't want to pay a lot. The 10 megabit per second data rate is implementable. We've done it, in both VLSI and MSI. We have to worry about both. We couldn't have said here's the spec - you can have it in two and a half years when we build the chips. You wouldn't want to hear that and neither would my boss. I can do 70 megabits too, I did the CI, but you don't want to pay CI prices for a local area network. It is pushing the technology to do 10 megabits in VLSI but I can do it. The encoder/decoder is typically a bipolar chip (some manufacturers are looking at doing it in CMOS) but it's not a problem to do it bipolar. However the protocol chip (the ethernet chip) you don't want to do in bipolar unless you want a die the size of a bread box. Its not easy to do 10 megahertz in NMOS, CMOS or any of the dense technologies. That is a real consideration in getting ethernet chips to work at speed. It's pushing the IC technology for this type of device. 10 megabits supports traffic for a larger number of stations than most people realize. A 10 megabit pipe is a very fat pipe. We have a network up in our Spitbrook Road software development facility with 75 computers hooked up to a single ethernet. About 50 VAXs and 25 PDP-11s running RSX The average utilizaton of that ethernet is under 5%. That's software development, file transfer, remote terminals and more mail than you could possibly imagine. Many people said "Why did you do 10 megabits? I don't need it. Give me one megabit and make it cheaper." There is some effort in the IEEE 802 committee on the product we affectionately call Cheapernet. The question was, "Do you want to leave it at 10 megabits and give up some performance or make it slower and maintain performance?" Both being ways to make it cheaper. As we try try to violate the ethernet spec and still be ethernet this is the one thing you can't violate and still be ethernet - you can not have coexisting stations on an ethernet running at different speeds. The problem is the implementation of the encoder/decoders. If I'm listening at 10 megabits and you are sending at one megabit that's not going to work very well. Also there are design optimizations you might call them or design characteristics that literally limit it to 10 megabits. Not up to 10 megabits but exactly 10 megabits. There are filters in the transceivers, low pass as well as high pass. There are delay lines or phase locked loops in the decoder that have fairly narrow capture ranges. They are looking for a 10 megabit signal within .01%. If you get much outside of that you can't guarantee tht your decoder is going to synch up in time. You've only got 64 bits to do it in. You can make a baseband CSMA/CD network that runs at another speed but it's not ethernet. V. COAX CABLE SEGMENT LENGTH. -ATTENUATION Let's look at coax cable length. The maximum coax cable length according to ethernet spec is 500 meters. That's between terminators. That can be any number of shorter pieces of cable connected with end connectors and barrels. Why 500 meters? There are a number of characteristics of the cable that are going to limit the length. Number one is cable attenuation. You lose signal voltage and current as you transmit down the cable. It gets weaker and weaker. At 10 megahertz the attenuation at 500 meters is 8.5 db. That means you get about a third of your signal. If you transmit 2 volts at one end you get six or seven hundred millivolts at the other. I can design a transceiver that can tolerate that sort of dynamic range. I don't want to have to tolerate a whole lot more. -DC RESISTANCE I'm limited, believe it or not, by the DC resistance of the cable. This is separate from the attenuation which is for high frequency and is based on the skin effect losses in the center conductor primarily. It's not dielectric loss. The DC resistance is important because that's how I do my collision detection. I'm looking for DC voltage to do collision detection and if there is a lot of resistance in the cable I get less of my voltage and I'm not guaranteed to detect collisions. -PROPOGATION DELAY I'm limited by the propogation delay, in other words by the speed of light. I've got some guys in research working on the warp drive and we'll have faster than light cables as soon as we get negative delay lines. The restriction that ethernet can't exceed 2.8 kilometers is really the restriction that the propogation delay can't exceed 46.4 microseconds(1). If you had faster cables you could have them longer. The ethernet cables are pretty fast as cables go. Typical plastic cables are 66% propogation velocity. Ethernet cables are 77-80% because they are foam. You can get a little better but over 80% is a pretty nifty cable. It's faster than an optical fiber. -TIMING DISTORTION Finally, timing distortions. Cables introduce timing distortions in the signals. It's what's called intersymbol interference in telecommunications. But because that's an often misused term we just call it timing distortion. When you are decoding the signal you want to see where the signals cross through zero. That's how I recover the clock in Manchester decoding and its how I get my data. If those zero crossings shift too far I can't properly decode the data and I get all errors. -STRETCHING THE COAX How can I stretch the cable? The 500 meter limit is based primarily on attenuation. The other factors, timing distortion, propagation delay, the DC resistance and the cable attenuation all will limit it at some point. But the one that limits it for my purposes is the attenuation. The signal gets weaker beyond 500 meters. What happens if you exceed 500 meters? You start to lose signal but unfortunately I don't lose noise. The more cable I have, in fact, the more noise I'm going to pick up. It's a big antenna. The signal to noise ratio will start to decrease as I get over 500 meters and I'm going to have increased error rates. The ethernet was designed for a one in ten to the ninth (a billion) bit error rate in a 14 db signal to noise ratio. That's pretty good and a 14db signal to noise ratio is pretty low, you normally have much much better than that. So under light noise environments where you are not in a factory or near a broadcast radio station (eg in an office) your signal to noise ratio is going to be a lot better than that. If you don't have 100 transceivers on the network your signal ratio will be a lot better than that. If your cable is one piece rather than many your signal to noise ratio will be a lot better than that. Worst case if you did everything bad, if you made it out of lots of little pieces and you put all the transceivers on and you had 500 meters and a high noise environment you still have a 14db signal to noise ratio and you can still run it over 500 meters. But if everything isn't all that bad you can go a little longer and not impair the system. But you have to know what you are doing! Now it can't be configured by dummies anymore. You have to understand the tradeoffs. What else happens if I keep going? Suppose I can tolerate the signal to noise ratio. Then the DC resistance starts to hit me. I start to lose collision detect margin. Maybe I can't guarantee collision detection any more when the resistance increases. The loop resistance of a 500 meter coax is about 4 ohms plus and my limit is 5 ohms after which I can't guarantee collision detection - unless you don't have 100 transceivers on the network. Then you can go a little farther. This is the sausage. If there isn't as much meat in the sausage I can stuff more in the casing. As I keep going I get more and more timing distortion. The ethernet coax introduces about plus or minus 7 nanoseconds of timing distortion. I've got 25 to play with in the system - 5 for my decoder, 7 for my coax, 1 is for my transceiver cable, 4 is for my transceiver and the rest is for noise margin. Well you can start eating up your noise margin. Obviously, if I go too far beyond 500 meters I pass my 46.4 microsecond(1) round trip and that's the end of the ball game right there. I'm now no longer on an ethernet because you can't guarantee to detect collisions. You'll detect some collisions but the stations out in the suburbs will be running on a carrier sense aloha system with respect to some of the stations. They will be carrier sense collision detect with respect to those nearby and the stations in the center of the net will be carrier sense collision detect with respect to every one. This may not sound catastrophic but I would hate to do the performance analysis of that system. I couldn't guarantee that the system is stable, in fact. That's what I consider hitting the wall. The 500 meter restriction results in, number one, collision detection and without that you don't have a stable network. Also, adequate decoder phase margin, I need 5 nanoseconds to play with. With a 100 nanosecond bit cell you've got 25 nanoseconds of timing distortion before you start strobing the bit in the wrong place. And I need 5 nanoseconds of that for my phase lock loop. VI. TRANSCEIVER CABLE LENGTH Let's look at the transceiver cable length. This is the drop cable between the transceiver and the controller. The tradeoffs here are roughly the same. Currently it's 50 meters maximum and that is also a function of the attenuation. The attenuation of that cable is a function of the wire gauge and a number of manufacturers are making transceiver cables of different wire gauge. The spec is for 50 meters and if you make it out of 30 gauge that's not a big enough pipe for reasons which we will discuss. The DC resistance is also important not because of collision detect but because I'm powering the transceiver at the other end of that cable out of the controller. If I have too much resistance I have too much voltage drop in the cable and I can't guarantee that the transceiver will power up correctly depending on wire gauge. -PROPOGATION DELAY AND TIMING DISTORTION The transceiver cable length also affects propagation delay although the main contributors are coax length, fiber optic repeater length and the repaters themselves. The cable also affects timing distortion but here it's much much less significant than the coax. Even if you doubled the length the distortion would only be 2 nanoseconds which is almost negligible. So the same parameters apply here as on the coax but in differing degrees. It's not so sensitive to propagation delay or timing distortion but very sensitive to DC resistance and attenuation. -DC RESISTANCE The 500 meter coax limit is based on attenuation while the 50 meter transceiver cable length is based on DC resistance. The cable is spec'ed to have maximum loop resistance between power supply and transceiver of 4 ohms. The cable is about 3.5 of those ohms and that's if it's 20 gauge wire. If it's 22 gauge wire I don't believe you can run 50 meters so you must be careful at least on the power pair. As you increase the cable length the transceiver may not power up or it may blow a fuse. Transceivers are negative resistance devices. As you decrease the voltage it increases the current and blows the fuse (up to a certain point). -ATTENUATION If you extend the length and remain functional say by having more power, then you hit the signal to noise ratio and your error rates go back up. It's the same situation as with the coax cable. But you have this other nasty thing called a squelch circuit. Communications systems designers always design squelch circuits. Any time you are at the end of a long communications channel you don't want to do anything unless you are sure what you are hearing is signal and not noise. You don't want to turn on the amplifiers for noise. On the coax that's fairly easy to do since my signaling is DC. I'm unipolar signaling and I can simply have a DC threshold detector. There's no such thing as DC noise. If there was we could tap into it and turn on the lights in Chicago. Noise by definition always has zero average, there's just as much positive as negative - something about entropy. So on the coax I'm using DC levels and I can just pickup the DC levels and my squelch is very easy. On the transceiver not so lucky. Since I'm transformer coupled (that's where isolation is done) I can't send any DC through the transformer. I have to use the signal itself to determine if there is any signal. That's like chasing your own tail. What it says is that I assume I am going to get at least so much signal at the end of the transceiver cable in the worst case. If I don't, I don't even turn on the receiver in the transceiver. If the attenuation is too great in the transceiver cable not only do I have a worse signal to noise ratio, I might not even have enough signal to turn on the squelch circuits which again makes it non-functional. With the ethernet spec numbers in the worst case with transceiver cable with 4 db loss, etc you are guaranteed plus or minus 400 millivolts at the far end of the cable. That's not a whole lot. Less than that and I can't guarantee the squelch circuit turns on. 50 meters of 20 gauge wire will result in more than 9.4 volts DC available to power the transceiver. The transceiver has got to power up with that. It does not have to power up with 9.3. If you've got half an amp and 4 ohms that's a two volt drop that says you had 11.4 at the sending end which is a 12 volt supply minus 5% which is what most of you have. 50 meters maintains my signal to noise ratio and degrades beyond that. I keep my decoder phase margins and I'm guaranteed of detecting collisions (the last wall, the one you can't run through). It's harder to stretch the transceiver cable than to stretch the coax because stretching the coax only gets you more errors (only if you are worst case) whereas stretching the transceiver cable makes you non-functional. That's where you have least flexibility but it can be done if you use heavier gauge wires or design your own transceiver or retune the squelch circuits or have more than 12 volts to power it. VII. NUMBER OF TRANSCEIVERS ON A SEGMENT. There's a limit of 100 transceivers on a cable. The number is limited by the shunt resistance of the cable (not the capacitance.) Each transceiver is a resistor across the cable. The resistance should be as high as possible, the spec says at least 100K ohms. The DEC H4000 is typically 250-300K minimum. Each one of those shunt resistors bleeds off a little of that DC current I'm using to detect my collisions so I don't want too many. Also the number of transceivers is limited by the input bias current. When I'm powered on I'm drawing a little bit of current out of the cable partly due to the resistance and partly due to the electronics since I can't perfectly back bias a diode. Diodes are leaky, they have leakage. I'm allowed 2 microamps which is not much but when multiplied by 100 transceivers, 200 microamps is starting to be some real current. So that limits me for collision detect reasons and for no other reasons. Also I've got a tolerance on the drive level. I'm driving it (I think) with 64 milliamps but I can't hold that very accurately. I defy anyone to design a 10 megahertz, 25 nanosecond slew rate limited high frequency current driver that's held to very tight tolerances. I can make the receivers pretty good but it's hard to make the drivers that accurate. So I've got weak transmitters and strong transmitters and I've got to detect collisions between all of them. In the worst case I'm a strong transmitter and 500 meters away is a weak transmitter and I have to make sure that even in the presence of my own strong signal I can hear his weak signal. So that all ties into it and into DC resistance on the cable. VIII. PLACEMENT OF TRANSCEIVERS. Where I can place the transceivers is limited by the shunt capacitance. This is the 2.5 meter rule. I don't want big AC loads on the cable because I get big reflections. This is the exact same problem, by the way, as with boards in a unibus backplane or in any backplane. You don't want all the loads in one place. You want them distributed so that there's time between the reflections. So how can we get around all this? The 100 transceiver limit is primarily based on the shunt resistance. Remember we were limited by shunt resistance, bias current and transmit level tolerance but the first wall you hit is shunt resistance believe it or not. That 100K ohms when multiplied by 100 is 1000 ohms and that is a lot of leak, it's a leaky pipe. If I lose more than that I lose my assurance of detecting collisions. The placement is limited by shunt capacitance and it assumes the 100 transceiver limit. Actually it turns out the worst case for placement is not 100 but 30-40 transceivers. In fact, 100 is better than 30-40 because some of the reflections start to cancel each other out. This can be done in simulation and we can prove this. As you increase the number of transceivers per segment over 100 I start to lose collision detect margins and can no longer guarantee collision detection and that blows me out of the water. If I vary from the 2.5 meter placement rule I get reflection increases. This doesn't stop things from working. It introduces more errors into the system. If I have error margin ie, I am not using 500 meters of cable, I am not in a high noise environment and I haven't segmented my cable in lots of little pieces, then I can start to violate the 2.5 meter rule. I can lump a few transceivers here and some there, etc. The 100 transceiver limit will hit the collision detect limit. The 2.5 meter spacing hits the signal to noise ratio all other things being equal. IX. TOTAL NETWORK LENGTH. Now let's look at total network length. I'm allowed 2.8K meters or 46.4 microseconds(1) end to end. That doesn't mean I can't have more than 2.8K meters of cable in the system. Within a particular topology with a maximal end to end path I may be able to stretch, say, a 500 meter segment but I would have to take some off somewhere else to stay within the 2.8K limit. For example I could have 2 1000 meter segments connected with a repeater if I could live with the signal to noise ratio. But I'm back to doing some engineering on the system. We wanted ease of configuration. If you stick by the rules (500 m coax, 50 m transceiver cable, 1000 m fiber, no more than 2 repeaters in the maximum path and no more than 100 transceivers spaced at 2.5 m) and don't violate any of them you can hit the limit on every one of those rules in one network and we guarantee the configuration works. You will have adequate noise margin, detect collisions all the time, you will not have excessive timing distortion, you will not exceed the propogation delay limit and you won't have excessive reflections. It's a worse case design system. If you need to break any of those rules it's no longer a worst case design system. That doesn't mean that it won't work in your configuration, only that in the general case it won't work. We wanted the minimum frame length to be as short as possible. In fact, there was a movement while we were writing the spec to cut it from 2800 meters maximum down to 1500 meters in order to shorten that minimum frame length and get a little more performance out of the network. But you turn out to be on the knee of the curve at that point. You don't get that much more performance and we concluded the extra kilometer was more than worth it. The 2800 meters is a tradeoff between your need for a long network and performance. With the specs it is impossible to exceed the round trip delay constraint. You can squeeze the sausage, in conclusion, if you know how strong the casing is, if you know where the limits are and what happens when you start hitting those limits. If you try and stuff too much in the sausage the casing will pop out. How? Maybe it won't work. Maybe the transceiver won't power up, maybe too many errors, maybe you won't detect collisions all the time. If you exceed the 2800 meter limit you won't guarantee collision detect by stations in the suburbs. To exceed the 2800 meter limit you have to violate something else. The configuration constraints are based on real physical limits; speed of light, electronic circuits, timing distortion, phase locked decoders and cable design. Thorough engineering went into the design of this system. You can break the rules of the system if you can understand and do over again the engineering. You can stretch the cables, put it in high noise environments, put on more transceivers or closer together, just make sure you know what you are doing. As always there's no free lunch. The free lunch they serve you here you've paid for already. There are two kinds of free lunches in engineering, those you have already paid for and those you have not yet paid for. At this point I'll open the the floor to questions. X. QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS. Question: What's the two repeater limit? Can you go to three, four? Answer: The spec says no more than two repeaters in tandem between any two stations. The reason is to keep from violating the 2800 meter limit. If I allow three, even sticking by all the other rules you could violate the 2800 meter rule. Other nasty things start to happen when you have more repeaters. It turns out that the interpacket gap shrinks when you go through a repeater. It's virtually time dilation. When you go through two properly designed repeaters the 9.6 microsecond interpacket gap you started with shrinks to about 6.3 microseconds. If you want to go through more repeaters you will shrink that gap more in the worst case. You have the possibility that stations will not be able to receive back to back packets. If you can live with that you can use more than two repeaters. Clearly, you don't want to shrink the gap to less than zero. If you use more than two repeaters the 2800 meter end to end restriction still holds. A repeater in itself with its squelch circuits and its buffers and its read time is the equivalent of about 200 meters of cable. So to have a third repeater you are giving up 200 meters of coax somewhere. Q: Experimentally what coax cable lengths have you successfully transmitted with, say, a dozen transceivers on the cable? A: I haven't. Folks at 3COM have run transceivers over almost 1000 meters without a repeater. But that's a fairly lightly loaded net, a small handful of transceivers. I generally don't violate the rules because I don't trust myself. I don't want to have to go through the analysis every time I configure an ethernet. Doing an ethernet I want it to be expandable. I want to be able to hang 100 transceivers on it when I want it. Q:Presumably you could add a repeater when you hit the limit adding transceivers. A:Absolutely. But how do you know when you've hit there? Do you have the maintainablility primitives built into your system to detect when you are no longer able to detect collisions? How do you know when you are not detecting collisions? How do you know when the errors you are getting are too many? Or what they are caused by? It's very hard to maintain a system that's breaking the rules because you can't tell whether the system is not working because you've broken the rules or because something is not working. Q: You mentioned the antenna effect. Can you comment on interference generated by ethernet cables and the susceptibility to noise interference in, say, the environment we have where the cable runs close to closed circuit TV cables? A: The ethernet system with a little good engineering easily meets FCC requirements. Current tests show that it in fact may meet Tempest EMI requirements. The cable shielding is unbelievable. You've got quadruple shield on the coax and triple shield on the drop cables. I've tested the ethernet system under 5 volt per meter and, in fact, 10 volt per meter rf field strengths up to a gigahertz and get absolutely no errors under those conditions. I've tested it under static discharge up to 20,000 volts directly discharging to the shield of the coax. In fact, I was able to draw St Elmo's fire off one of the terminators and not only did I not blow up any of the equipment, I did not get any CRC errors. It's fairly roboust. Q: My question deals with the H4000 transceiver. Should you be able to plug in a transceiver to the DEUNA with the system running and not cause a transient power surge that would pull DC low down on you? A: The DEUNA has a bulkhead assembly that comes with it which is specifically designed to limit surge currents into the transceiver so you can do exactly what you described. There's an SCR/RC surge limiter and circuit breaker built into that bulkhead for exactly that reason. Q: I'd just like to comment that I thought this was an excellent presentation. A: Thank you. Q: What type of throughput could I expect given maximum packet size? A: The throughput of an ethernet is much more a function of your higher layer software than it is of the data rate of the ethernet. You have to know what other stations are trying to use it, what your packet formats are, what the controllers are doing. What I'm saying is, "That's not an easy question to answer." The answer is, "Under what conditions?" Using DEUNAs? Under what load? What software? It's not something that can be answered with a number. I wish I could. It's the kind of thing that everyone asks. Q: Can you give an approximate answer for only two systems? A: We have run VAXs with DEUNAs through the ethernet at continuous transmission and reception of between 1.2 and 1.5 megabits per second. And that clearly doesn't use up a whole lot of the ethernet. There's room still for two more VAXs to do the same thing. That's limited more by the DEUNA than anything else. Q: What effect does a DELNI have on all these considerations? A: Good point. The DELNI is another piece of the physical channel. You can have transceiver cable between the DEUNA and the DELNI. You can have transceiver cable between the DELNI and the H4000. The DELNI has some propogation delay and another copy of the squelch circuits. The net effect is that on an absolutely maximally configured ethernet you can't put the DELNIs on the very very ends of the horizon (the suburbs) because of the additional delay. The configuration guidelines in the DELNI documentation describe all that. Q: 3COM is pushing this thin ethernet cable for their IBM PC connections and they say all I'm giving up is maximum coax length. What kind of trouble am I asking for if I use that in a network with real ethernet coax? A: Well, in fact, what 3COM is doing is prereleasing the Cheapernet product. I was out there a couple weeks ago talking to Ron Crane who, by the way, is one of the developers of the ethernet. They are pretty smart people. You are giving up a little more than the maximum cable length, you are giving up signal to noise ratio. The design center for the Cheapernet is two orders of magnitude worse than for ethernet. The basic error performance of the channel is significantly worse. Q: Am I going to get bad reflections at the point at which I switch these cables? In particular, one's tempted to run thick cable for long runs then hit a cluster of offices and have a little bit of thin cable then switch back to thick. Would it be bad to do that three or four times? A: Yes. Q: Every picture we see of legal ethernet has one point to point segment in it exactly 1000 meters long. Is it really the case that I can have as many of those point to point segments as I want coming off of a base rib as long as the total of the two longest ones is not more than 1000 meters. A: Yes. You can have 100 repeaters connected to the center segment each with 500 meter fiber links to a separate segment and it works just fine. Q: Thank you. Would you tell that to all the people that are selling ethernet for DEC? A: The reason that the charts are drawn that way is because it's easier to draw the charts that way. Q: The problem is that the local people don't seem to understand that and keep telling me that's not a legal ethernet. A: I promise the next ethernet presentation I give will have that chart with multiple fiber optic repeaters. Q: Variation of the same question. What is the likely impact of optical technology on your strategy for the introduction of routers in an internet context? I presume they are not bound by the same attenuation delay. A: Right. Routers do store and forward. As such they are not part of the 46 microsecond collision detect. Fiber technology is super for long distance point to point links. In fact, that's why we specify it for the long distance point to point link. They are suitable for even longer distances. The phone companies use them regularly. The problem with fiber is it's special. You have to pull it between buildings or where you are going to be routing. Most people aren't prepared to do that. They want to use leased lines or X.25 or some publically available channel. If your are willing to pull fiber it should not be a problem having high speed links between routers using fiber. That's a technology we are very interested in. Q: I can infer from that the distance consideration will be considerably different. A: Absolutely. That's right. Q: I need to hook up an ethernet between three different buildings and I hear that there can be potential grounding problems. Could you talk a little about that? A: Sure. You generally want to avoid grounding a piece of wire in two separate buildings because there can be differences in the ground potential between those buildings and you'll get lots of amperes flowing through the shield of that cable. If the voltage difference between the buildings is low enough and the source impedance is high enough you can ground the cable at both ends. Where it enters the building is the preferable place to do that for lightning protection. If you can't tell by measurements (I would find a qualified technician or electrician to make those measurements) I would ground it in one building and put a lightning arrester in the other building to prevent the lightning hit from propagating through. Q: You connect to one of the barrel connectors and physically ground it to the... A: That's correct, I would put a barrel where the cable enters the building and ground it to the frame of the building where it enters. That's exactly what I did in a number of the field test sites for ethernet. Q: How about the ground rods most computer rooms have? A: I would do it where the cable enters the building for maximum lightning protection. Q: We are getting a VAX cluster and hope in the next year to plan for ethernet. I would like to know how a VAX cluster fits on to the the ethernetwork and what its growth potential is. A: The VAX cluster doesn't directly connect to the ethernet. You can connect VAX cluster interfaces to the VAXs and you can connect ethernet interfaces to the VAXs and the DECNET will rout between the VAX cluster and the ethernet. The VAXs will be acting as routers but there is no direct connection between the VAX cluster and the ethernet. However, if anyone has noticed, the cable in the VAX cluster is the ethernet cable. It's the same coax. Q: Is there any plan to put anything into the star coupler or the HSC directly? A: No. The reason is that it's an enormous amount of difference between the two. You've got speed conversions and protocol conversions. The CI datalink is very very different from the ethernet datalink because it was designed for a different application and the speeds are seven to one difference. There would have to be a computer in there. Q: This may not be a proper forum to ask this question but how has DEC violated the rules in its own installation? A: I have a number of ethernets in my lab that have the transceivers too close. I have some that have transceivers that exceed their own specs. I generally don't stretch the transceiver cables beyond 50 meters. I have hooked up five repeaters in tandem, two of them being fiber optic. Q: How about cable length? A: I usually don't go beyond 500 meters because I usually don't need to. Transcriber's note: (1) The Blue Book says 44.9 microseconds.
--
Tim



Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 23/05/2020 11:01, Tim Streater wrote:

I'm sorry. I read it, it makes no sense and the resistance bit is still bollocks. It does explain where you got it from tho

--
"I am inclined to tell the truth and dislike people who lie consistently.
This makes me unfit for the company of people of a Left persuasion, and
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

: So it dosen't work, but why not? I don't have anything with the output : circuit of an 10B-2 Ethernet card around, but I'm sure the answer lies : there. Maybe someone familiar with what goes on the coax can explain the : problem the higher load impedance causes.
Since I'm the guy who selected the cable impedance for Ethernet in the first place, let me explain the rationale. (I have been asked this question before...)
Earlier posts have properly explained that 75 ohm cable will not perform correctly, due the the design of the collision detect threshold, however the more basic question is valid--why 50 ohm? It would have been possible to design Ethernet to use 75 ohm cable in the first place. There are a few reasons for 50 ohm:
1: For a given outside diameter, a 50 ohm cable has lower DC resistance than 75 ohms. This is because the impedance is basically a function of the ratio of the outer-to-inner diameter. For a given outer diameter, the inner conductor will be larger for a 50 ohm cable. (Zo = (138/sqrt(e)) log (D/d), where e is the dielectric constant of the insulator, D is the outer diameter and d is the inner diameter.) Thus, a 50 ohm cable has a larger center conductor, and a lower DC resistance. The collision detect budget is critically dependent on the DC resistance of the system; the high-frequency attenuation is much less critical.
2: The lower DC resistance also significantly decreases the effective "rise-time" of the cable. Coax, when used for digital signals such as in Ethernet, is a "skin-effect limited" cable. Thus, the step response at the end of some length is limited by the skin effect resistance. Again, a larger center conductor reduces the skin effect resistance and the rise time. This is an important factor in the round-trip propagation delay, which affects slot time, minimum frame lengths, etc.
3: There are available, low-cost, off-the-shelf, constant-impedance connectors for 50 ohm cable. The conventional 75 ohm connectors (F connectors, as used in CATV, or UHF as used by hams) are not 75 ohms, and would cause small reflections. The Type N connectors used in 10Base-5 and the BNCs used in 10Base-2 are 50 ohm connectors.
4: The signal budget for Ethernet is affected by the shunt impedance presented by attached transceivers. Each transceiver presents some lumped capacitive load, and some resistive shunt as well. For a given shunt impedance (less than infinity), the effect will be less when shunting 50 ohms than 75 (e.g., 8 pf degrades the signal in a 50 ohm system less than in 75 ohms, since the time constant is 1/3 lower). Thus, a 50 ohm system can support more devices in parallel on the bus.
5: Most lab test equipment is designed for 50 ohms (signal generators, spectrum analyzers, scopes, etc.). It is much easier to make measurements in a 50 ohm system.
That's why I chose 50 ohms... We considered all of the options at the time.
--
Rich Seifert Networks and Communications Consulting
snipped-for-privacy@netcom.com (408) 996-0922
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 23/05/2020 11:18, Tim Streater wrote:

No, it isn't. This seems to have been a myth that got around
The rest is valid tho.
--
Any fool can believe in principles - and most of them do!



Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 23/05/2020 12:13, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

I want you to not accept what an expert has said, but explain WHY what he says, is true? Especially since I can find no other reference anywhere to 'DC' or 'cable *resistance* in any paper on CSMA/CD systems. Cable impedance, yes, resistance no.
And today's systems still implement CSMA/CD but are universally coupled in with transformers. That don't pass DC..
And DC won't propagate any faster than someone else's pulse train anyway.
AIUI collision detection is dome by sensing that the output on the wire which you have 'grabbed' is not exactly what you are putting on it.
Cable *impedance* and of course attenuation matters but as long as they are within tolerance that's OK, what is crucial however is that you don't have excessive propagation delays and that is what screws you with long cable runs. Two stations - one at each end - can transmit, see their packets go clear and un buggered before detecting each others transmission if the cable is too long.
In short.
- impedance is determined as your article says by ratio of inner to outer conductor diameter, modified by the dielectric in between - air cored polythene usually.
- Attenuation is a function of resistance, which given the above is a function of cable core circumference and material - usually silver plate on quality cables, or just copper. (fat cables lose less).
- propagation delay is determined by the dielectric and the cable length - the nearer a vacuum the nearer the speed of light the signal travels.
As it happens for all cables and electronics in use then and now, propagation delay is the limiting factor. Because you have to have a line that is clear of all other travelling waves to transmit on.
Collision detection is a simple matter of receiving stuff you did not transmit.
No DC involved at all.
Same as wifi today. No DC involved at all.
--
No Apple devices were knowingly used in the preparation of this post.

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

What causes dispersion then? Does not loss (resistance) slow higher frequencies more and reduce pulser risetime? I have no recollection of theory, and I am quite prepared to be wrong.
--

Roger Hayter

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 24/05/2020 10:40, Roger Hayter wrote:

theoretically dispersion doesn't happen :-)
AFAICR its down to the effective dielectric constant not being constant with frequency. Bit like chromatic aberration in glass.
--
"First, find out who are the people you can not criticise. They are your
oppressors."
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Yes, at least indirectly.
It is due to the Velocity factor changing with frequency and Vf is related to the dielectric constant of the insulation. Vf = 1/(Er)^0.5
As a result, in for example a square wave (composed as you know of odd harmonics of the fundamental), the different frequencies are propagated at different speeds and the shape is distorted. (A trivial example but easy to visualise.)
--
https://www.unitedway.org/our-impact/featured-programs/end-human-trafficking

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 23/05/2020 12:13, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

So the guy who actually made the decision on the cable type for use on ethernet, world renowned IEEE expert member, who on several occasions the Task Force chairman, and editor of 802.3x standards document[1], explains why the DC resistance is an important parameter for the CD mechanism:

and some decades later, TNP says:

What a dilemma, who should we believe?

Well I am sure he will be pleased to have your validation.
[1] https://ecfsapi.fcc.gov/file/1050839507018/IEEE%20Standard%20for%20Ethernet.pdf
--
Cheers,

John.
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

How does the collision detect work ?
Paul
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
The whole thing has gone way beyond my will to dig deeply, but my recollection was the impedance was specifically about preventing reflections along the cable ...
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

But I imagine the important part of the impedance is the imaginary (*) part - due to effects of L and C of the cable - rather than the DC resistance. Maybe I'm wrong.
(*) The part that's multiplied by i / j / square-root-of-minus-one. I remember getting into a heated discussion in a pub quiz which asked "what letter is used to denote square-root-of-minus-one?" and they would only accept "i" and not "j" - the latter being used in electronics because "i" is used for instantaneous current. I won my point, but it was a hard fight - Google to the rescue! I worked with a guy called John William Taylor, aka Bill Taylor but referred to universally as J-Omega (as in the algebraic term j-omega-t that occurs all over in electronics).
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 23/05/2020 13:41, NY wrote:

in terms of maintaining wave shape, it is, but in terms of attenuation it's the actual (skin) resistance that counts.
I remember doing that ghastly calculus of an infinite number of Ls in series and Cs in p[parallel and showing that in the limit it looked just like a resistor...

--
“Ideas are inherently conservative. They yield not to the attack of
other ideas but to the massive onslaught of circumstance"
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Sat, 23 May 2020 13:41:39 +0100, NY wrote:

Once upon a time I knew all that. 35 years have pretty much left me with what I posted :)
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

No. The impedance is real, although brought about by Ls and Cs. But the real energy passed into this impedance is not dissipatet in the (hypothetically and practically) negligible resistance but propagated away until it gets to the matched resistive load at the end of the cable.[1]

[1] If the cable has not got a matched load at the end then you *don't* see the characteristic impedance at the beginning. But the impedance you see with a matched load *isn't* the load itself but the cable impedance.
--

Roger Hayter

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

HomeOwnersHub.com is a website for homeowners and building and maintenance pros. It is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.