Boiler Choice

I have a standard mains gas boiler ..... Baxi Barcelona

Considering changing this, need 30kW heat output ...... an option would be Worcester Greenstar 30Ri or the 8000Life

Though could just get another Baxi .... 430 or 630 HEAT

Is the Worcester worth 25%+ premium ? ...... I know it is 4% more efficient

Reply to
rick
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I had a WB Greenstar 24Si fitted 6months back replacing a 31yr old Potterton Netaheat Electronic 16-22. Had the dudes fit a WB Filter at the same time which gives me a 10 year parts & labour warranty as long as I have it serviced to WB standards every year.

Expensive but it is a lot smaller than the Potterton and stunningly quiet in operation. Having a pressurised CH system has fixed the never ending airlocks I had before. All rads get hot all of the time!

Reply to
mm0fmf

Quick look (not best price) Baxi 630 is around £930 Worcester 8000 Life is around £1190

Reply to
rick

Worcester and Vaillant generally regarded as best for reliability.

Reply to
newshound

In the same way that VW cars are generaly regarded as being reliable. That's the power of marketing.

Reply to
David

But VW (VAG) cars aren't regarded as reliable. And it's years and years since "if only everything in life was as reliable as a Volkswagen" or "very tough as old boots" were marketing phrases.

Certainly wont be as bad as the Ferrolli that was in my son's house.

Reply to
mm0fmf

It's difficult to buy a truly bad new car these days, just as it's difficult to buy a truly bad boiler. Pretty much all cars and pretty much all boilers are fine.

I think most people do regard VW cars as reliable, which is fair enough because they are. I think they're no more reliable than an average car though.

The same is true for WB boilers. They're OK, the widely-published adverts say how great they are, and they are backed by a huge fleet of service and repair technicians :)

For someone who wants a boiler that is above average reliability, due to its inherent design, an InterGas is the one to go for. See a current thread here, for example:

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UK-built, too. But you won't see many InterGas repair vans driving around, and their marketing budget can't approach the size of Worcester Bosch's...

Reply to
David

If they're that great why do they need a huge fleet of back up people?

Reply to
charles

Be interesting to know the average lifespan and number of breakdowns etc. Saving a few quid on purchase costs may be poor value if it need lots of repairs and early replacement.

That's the sort of data Which should be able to get from its members.

Reply to
Dave Plowman (News)

Stop teasing. You know WB would need a huge fleet if even just in 1 in

100 of their boilers went wrong each year but they had 10,000,000 installed. Just as you'd probably never see an Intergas van if 1 in 20 went wrong each year but they only had 10,000 installed. (And then there's the question if Intergas even have staff or contractors with branded vans.)

Of course there's also the fact that for some reason Intergas don't do well in Which? surveys of reliability.

Reply to
Robin

Intergas use service agents, few of their own people. So no vans with their logo on the side.

Reply to
John

Intergas are Dutch, not made in the UK. They were expanding, not able make enough boilers for the demand, needing larger facilities. Why they are smallish in the UK. They are not pushed relying on reputation. They have had fitted around 100,000 boilers in the UK, including initially being rebadged as the Atmos. They have just been taken over by American HVAC giant Rheem, who in turn are owned by Paloma of Japan. Expect marketing money to come when production increases. They aim to hit the increasing US and Canadian market.

Reply to
John

I stand corrected. Thanks For the background info.

Reply to
David

They do a general survey - 9000 households, 200 engineers. Top 5 Worcester, Vaillant, Viessmann, Potterton and Ideal. Bottom 3 - Headline, Ferroli and Biasi (same for engineers and households).

Reply to
RJH

Depends on the data and criteria they use - sometimes service call outs are taken into account, rather than just the quality of the appliance. The best quality boilers on the market, that all those in the heating industry (not plumbers) would agree on are: Intergas, ATAG (both Dutch who invented the condensing boiler) and Navien. Navien are Koran who are the biggest boiler manufacturers in the world - been available in the UK for about 5-7 years. Viessmann are below them, who have recently dropped in quality. The rest lag way behind the top three with Worcester Bosch, Ideal, Baxi and Vaillant way overpriced for what they are.

Navien have advanced designs with even touch control user panels with also great touches like taking the outside temperature for weather compensation from satellites, so no wire to a sensor on the north side of a building. Their stainless double pass heat exchangers do not need cleaning. The latest Intergas and Navien boilers modulate way down low, to under 3kw. When on an Opentherm thermostat (really a sensor not an on-off stat), the burner modulates to the demands of the building. Only when the demand is below 3kW, or lower, will any burner cycling occur; by then the building will be up temperature anyhow with heating off.

Reply to
John

We've got a Worcester. It must be about 14 years old.

We've had one major issue- fixed either under warranty or the service contract, I'm not sure which, there was another minor problem but I think that was related to the other one. At the last regular check up, the engineer who we see almost every year and have got to know a bit, commented it was as good as new. Certainly it seems to work well enough.

The major issue was a leak in the heat exchanger- quite early on. The minor issue was the condensation trap- from memory it become distorted and leaked.

We have a 'whole system' service contract. It saves any hassle. The odd other thing has failed (other that the boiler) and they have turned up, fixed it, without any fuss. When they repaired the heat exchanger, they replaced the lockshield valves as the old ones which were a bit naff and fitted thermostatic valves where I wanted them.

Reply to
Brian Reay

Interesting. I chose a Veissmann some 12 years ago, based on reports here and elsewhere. Not regretted the choice. Was impressed with the build quality on the one repair it's needed in this time. Things like the PCB including fuses on all the outputs. Even although they're soldered in, and not something the average repair man would fix.

Spares are pricey, but availability and delivery very good.

Only real complaint is the user interface. Setting up things like the weather compensation. Which I'd hoped would be addressed on later models by doing it all via your phone or PC, rather than fiddly multi function buttons on the programmer. But I think par for the course at that time.

Shame if they've dropped back in the pecking order. I did a self install, and the human on the other end of the help line couldn't have been more helpful. He was obviously an engineer, rather than just a phone advisor, who had to look everything up.

Reply to
Dave Plowman (News)

Seem odd to pay a great deal of money to be told everything is OK once a year? ;-)

Reply to
Dave Plowman (News)

We don't think so and its our money. In the scheme of things it isn't a 'great deal of money' - a couple of meals out.

Reply to
Brian Reay

Viessmann have flagged recently. The quality of the older models you can testify to. Pricey spare parts is not an issue with reliable boilers, as you rarely use them. The best by design is Intergas. The quality is high as well. The bi-thermal heat exchanger is flat being as big the casing, located at the back of the casing with all components at the front, being easy to get at the few component in the thing. The intergas is a two man lift it is so well made. The boiler was introduced in 1996 in Holland in response to a call for a simple, reliable, low maintenance, combi for the Dutch social housing market.

They listened to the servicemen to what they wanted as they were starting uncompromised from a clean sheet, they were not designing a boiler to be an assembled "kit" of of third party parts as most are. The Intergas Rapid is still basically the same 1996 boiler, which was "way ahead" of others at the time with weather compensation and Opentherm as standard and not overpriced either; Opentherm protocol is used extensively in Holland. They first came into the UK rebadged by a small UK company called Atmos - who also rebadged other makes. Sales were by reputation, then Intergas established themselves in the UK as manufacturing and UK demand increased. They have introduced a number of new models since, however the same heat exchanger design is used.

I believe Vaillant wanted to buy out Intergas to get their hands on the heat exchanger. They did talk about making the heat exchanger under licence. The Americans/Japanese beat them to it buying the company, which will still operate independently in Holland. Vaillant are still buying French Gianoni heat exchangers. Whether the heat exchanger will also be made elsewhere to meet Intergas' demand is yet to be seen.

Others makers have chunky heat exchangers, either square or round, the round French Gianoni is common in Vaillants, Baxi and others. These types are not a good fit inside the casing, leaving wasted space around them. Subsequently, when manufacturers make combis (the biggest market) they have to squeeze in a plate heat exchanger, 3-way valve, pump and all the other pipework and sensors. This makes servicing difficult in that common fail components have to be removed to get at those behind - a big job to replace a small cheap component. Look at this on the Intergas design, the heat exchanger is all the back, what you need to get at is on the front. The whole front of the heat exchanger lifts off by removing 10 bolts to clean:

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The boiler for advanced electronics is Navien. They even coat the pcb with a plastic coating in case water gets on it.

I think it's the ATAG A325ECX combi that has integrated flue heat recovery in for DHW, which increases the DHW flowrate, and efficiency of course.

Reply to
John

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