battery barns

Anyone know anything about these new "battery barns" that the subsidy farming companies are trying to set up? The idea is to charge them from the grid at certain times and then release it back when needed. There's a planning application for one near our village. It's huge - about fifty metres long!
--
Jack

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On 19/05/2017 16:56, Handsome Jack wrote:

Apart from fire risk, what problems do you foresee?
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On Friday, 19 May 2017 17:05:23 UTC+1, GB wrote:

How are they ging to get power into the system? If it was a worthwhile proposition why have the power companies invested in it? Such a thing would be cheaper than the Dinorwic Project was.
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On 20/05/17 07:05, Weatherlawyer wrote:

no, its about 5 times as expensive.
its another green scam getting preferential treatment. there are some small hydro plants in Scotland that could be made reversible for far less.
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On 19/05/17 16:56, Handsome Jack wrote:

Just pray no one ever puts a short across it I would oppose it like the blazes on the grounds of safety and environmental issues
Find out its storage capacity and express that in tonnes of TNT and ask the council if they feel happy granting permission to such a hazard.
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On Friday, 19 May 2017 17:39:07 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

There'll be more energy at your local petrol station. Or on the supermarket car park. Try to grow up.
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On 19/05/2017 17:54, harry wrote:

You don't get it, do you?
A battery has all the elements in close proximity in a cell, whereas petrol in a tank is isolated from the surrounding air.
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On 20/05/17 01:12, Fredxxx wrote:

50MWh is around 50,000 litres of petrol or diesel
The reason we use petrol and diesel is because they are a reasonable compromise between easy to get the energy out of and safe to store.
Batteries are not so safe to store.
They contain the means to self ignite
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I was going to say something similar but you beat me to it. The equivalent hazard to battery storage is not, as Harry suggests, petrol in a tank, large or small, but storing the fuel for LPG vehicles as a compressed mixture of gas and air, or gas and oxygen.
--

Chris

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On 20/05/2017 09:43, Chris Hogg wrote:

I would say the major difference which includes LPG tanks is there a physical separation between the two elements, fuel and air/oxygen. In some instances there are some statutory requirements.
The saving grace for batteries is that cells are generally designed in such a way where if one lets go, it will have limited effect on surrounding cells. If you don't: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_787_Dreamliner_battery_problems
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On Friday, 19 May 2017 16:57:02 UTC+1, Handsome Jack wrote:

It's about solving the problems of intermittancy with renewable energy. Another German idea.
Might be these. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_battery
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On 19/05/2017 17:43, harry wrote:

Someone phoned me today to try and get me to fit a solar battery and panels. They decided to hang up when I asked them how many hundreds of panels I would need to charge the battery and supply all my electricity even in winter.
I think its about 10 sq meters per kwhr in winter and about 20% of that in summer. How many kwh do you get from your two 4kwp arrays in winter?
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On Friday, 19 May 2017 20:22:33 UTC+1, dennis@home wrote:

The problem is by night and when it's cloudy not because of Winter per se.
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On 20/05/2017 08:32, harry wrote:

That's why you need so many panels to cope with the reduced light and hours. He was saying I could get free electricity all night.
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On Saturday, 20 May 2017 10:40:27 UTC+1, dennis@home wrote:

Well if you have PV and batteries, so you can. I did think about it myself but the prices are stupid.
Mind you, it would be a straightforward DIY project. Depending if you wanted to get 220Vac from the batteries. 12Vdc/220vac inverters are easliy available.
Or just have lighting and 12v LEDs.
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On Sat, 20 May 2017 05:19:29 -0700 (PDT), harry

My cousin has PV panels that were supplied and fitted to him free, he gets the electricity (free from the panels) but has bought 4 x battery himself (probably ~£4k).
I asked him how long he expected to take him before he saw any real savings and he didn't know. ;-(
I'm pretty sure he didn't know who paid the company supplying the 'Free' panels the FIT cash and think he might not have gone ahead with it all if he had.
Given his age and the fact he has no offspring to leave the house / PV system to I'm guessing he just has some spare cash to play with (and I can understand it (the battery part) for those reasons). ;-)
Cheers, T i m
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On Friday, 19 May 2017 16:57:02 UTC+1, Handsome Jack wrote:

http://www.green-hedge.com/the-energy-barn/
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wrote:

Any info in the PA about capacity, MWh, how long it'll supply the grid for, flat out, that sort of thing, bearing in mind that the UK consumes something in the region of 800-900GWh of electrical energy per day? I'm not suggesting this one will have anything like that capacity, it won't come remotely near it, but I'm passingly interested. The pumped storage facility at Dinorwig can supply approximately 1.7GW for six hours.
--

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On 16:56 19 May 2017, Handsome Jack wrote:

Is it going to be an unwelcome eyesore?
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On 19/05/17 19:57, pamela wrote:

No more than say 100 tonnes of TNT stored in as shed.
All googling reveals is PR and marketing lies.
It seems likely that a typical barn might be 10MW with a capacity of around 50MWh. Lithium batteries in racks. The ones that you are not allowed to take on planes because they catch fire.
At a guess lithium batteries at that scale would be around £500/Kwh, so this size of barn would represent £5m or so.
I reckon a Dinorwig would cost about a billion these days for 10GWh. Far cheaper and lasts longer.
Which is about the same energy as 43 tonnes of TNT. Which would be released if they got shorted. Internally. Accidentally.
But this is a guess and no one is actually quoting real numbers.
Of course they will sail through planning just like bird mincers and bat exploders do, and the only class of rotating industrial machinery apart from aircraft propellers that is allowed to be operated without a safety guard.
Sigh. The whole point of brexit was to ditch this renewable shit and build gas power stations and nukes.
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