bathroom and shower lighting, zones, etc

Hi & Merry Christmas,
You may have read my other posts. I was changing a shower for a pensioner and the things "developed" into replacing a wall, tiling it, etc! Now I want to fit new lights in the bathroom.
I understood the zones around a bath. In the 16th ed. zone 0 was in the bath, zone 1 was directly above the bath for so many metres, and zone 2 was so many metres to the side of zone 1, and zone 3 was so many metres to the side of zone 2.
Am I right to think the only change to the 17th ed. is that zone 3 is no longer called a zone and is now called "outside the zones"?
While I understand the zones around a bath, I am uncertain how they work around a shower tray.
To keep things simple, say the shower tray was put in a corner. There would be two walls which would be zone 1 and the tray itself would be zone 0. Now if the other two sides of the shower had a curtain around them. So what would the wall on the other side of the curtain be? Would that be zone 2? Or is it considered zone 1 because of the risk that the curtain might be left open and allow water out?
If the shower was enclosed by a glass cubicle, would that change the zones? There would be a glass door that opened on one side but the other side would be fixed. What zones exist then? If no water can get out of the fixed side, would there even be a zone there?
These are a couple of hypothetical situations. In my situation, the cubicle is in a corner so there are two brick walls and obviously these are inside the cubicle and are zone 1. Whereas I described a glass cubicle, in this situation the third side is a wall (the wall of tiled PB that I posted about earlier). The inside of that wall is again, inside the cubicle and is zone 1 but what is the other side? Since no shower water could get to it, is it outside the zones?
Of course it is within a bathroom, so I would need to consider how far from the bath and basin this third wall is.
I thought lights in zone 1 had to be IP44 rated and could be either 240V or low voltage. If 240V they have to have a 30mA RCD. A low voltage light needs the transformer outside of the zones. Is that right so far?
Some light selling web sites have said they must be IP65, which is why I am unsure about the IP rating.
The house is on a split CU: half RCD'ed, and half not. The lights are on the "not" side, so if I used 240v, I would have to use a spur RCD.
Are there any low voltage lights that are not recessed? I haven't used downlighters before (they are too young and trendy for me LOL) but I thought they were supposed to be a PITA because they get hot and are a fire hazard and you have to fit fire jackets, etc.
It is difficult to access the loft above the cubicle, it's in the corner so little headroom and there is a chimney breast making things very difficult. I would prefer not to have to go up there to play with the back of a downlighter. It's also dusty so I am worried about the heat and fire risk. Does a fire jacket stop the heat from getting out or does it only stop flames going up?
TIA
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http://www.electrics-home.co.uk/pdf/pocket/pocketguide1and2.pdf
any use?
--
Adam



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On Sun, 26 Dec 2010 11:08:43 -0000, "ARWadsworth"

A little thanks.
Was I out of date to say that 240v lamps in zone one needed to be RCD'd but low voltage ones don't? Your link suggests they all do but thinking about it doesn't everything have to be RCD'd under the 17th ed?
I suppose I was getting too distracted wondering about imaginary situations with showers.
I found some more lights on toolstation's web site. They were hiding because they were in the "downlight" section rather than the "bathroom" light section.
http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Lighting/Low+Voltage+Downlights/IP44+Low+Voltage+Frosted+Showerlight+Chrome/d220/sd2638/p74972
Claims to be a shower light but then says zones 2 and 3 only. Why? It's low voltage and IP44.
Is it that ipx4 is ok for weak showers but not enough protection from jets from power showers? Is this why some web sites recommend higher ip ratings for their shower lights?
I am unsure about downlighters but perhaps I should start a new thread? I thought they were all quite big, like this: http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Lighting/Low+Voltage+Fire+Rated+Downlights/Fire+Rated+Cast+Adjustable+Downlighter+MR16+White/d220/sd2721/p60853
That's obviously not a bathroom light but I use it to illustrate the depth of the fitting.
Or is it that the deep models incorporate a fire jacket and the slim models don't? Do the "slim" models take up as much space once the fire jackets are fitted?
When would you use lights that are not fire rated? Is it a good idea to always use fire rated lights?
I didn't want something that would protrude into the loft that much, so that's why I didn't want a downlight, however I have now found this: http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Lighting/Low+Voltage+Downlights/Low+Voltage+IP65+Showerlight+White/d220/sd2638/p87185
which looks like it takes up minimal space.
Would I need a fire jacket with this one?
You can see on the photo it says something about 0.5m. What's that? Do I need to leave 0.5m above it or below it?
I was amazed how cheap this was and the transformer too: http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Lighting/Low+Voltage+Downlights/Electronic+Transformer+12v+60w/d220/sd2638/p55497
Sorry to ask so many questions but as you can tell, I've never used downlighters before.
I am puzzled by the bulbs too. Do I get one with as wide an angle as possible? These bulbs have an angle of 60 degrees.
These two bulbs are made by the same manufacturer and appear to have the same spec but:
http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Lighting/12V+Halogen+Lamps/Sylvania+Halogen+12v+MR16+50w+60+900cd/d220/sd3278/p96626
says it is unsuitable for fire rated lamps but this one:
http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Lighting/12V+Halogen+Lamps/Sylvania+Halogen+12v+MR16+50w+60+900cd/d220/sd3278/p42274
says it is fine with fire rated lights.
What's the difference between them?
These are both rated at 900cd. Is that bright or should I look for something brighter?
TIA
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On 26/12/10 14:45, Fred wrote:

There is no benefit to the safety of a SELV accessory to add an RCD, assuming the SELV PSU is out of reach.
However, RCD protection may be required to the mains supply to the SELV PSU for other reasons, which may include:
1) Taking advantage of the 17th's option of not having supplimentary bonding providing various conditions are met;
2) Protection from penetration of the cables when buried in a wall etc or if the cables or accessories they are supplying are in the bathroom ("special location").
2 is not retroactive, meaning if you are just replacing the lighting in the bathroom on a perfectly good 16th compliant installation, you do not have to convert everything to be 17th compliant.
1 is dependant on the 17th though as the 16th required supplimentary bonding in a bathroom.
So you may have some flexibilty but if you work to the 16th, do check the supplimentary bonding is in place.

http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Lighting/Low+Voltage+Downlights/IP44+Low+Voltage+Frosted+Showerlight+Chrome/d220/sd2638/p74972
In essence, yes. The OSG says IPx4 for showers/baths in zone 1 but IPx5 if water jets.
It also limits the SELV supplies to 12v ac or 30v dc (ripple free) which is lower than unqualified ELV limits.

http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Lighting/Low+Voltage+Fire+Rated+Downlights/Fire+Rated+Cast+Adjustable+Downlighter+MR16+White/d220/sd2721/p60853
http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Lighting/Low+Voltage+Downlights/Low+Voltage+IP65+Showerlight+White/d220/sd2638/p87185
http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Lighting/Low+Voltage+Downlights/Electronic+Transformer+12v+60w/d220/sd2638/p55497
http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Lighting/12V+Halogen+Lamps/Sylvania+Halogen+12v+MR16+50w+60+900cd/d220/sd3278/p96626
http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Lighting/12V+Halogen+Lamps/Sylvania+Halogen+12v+MR16+50w+60+900cd/d220/sd3278/p42274
I used 5 of these over 3m2 and find them quite good:
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/MLDEC1233C.html
IP65, unscrew glass to change bulb - no removing fitting from ceiling. Bets to have on a soft start switch or dimmer (there is a pull cord dimmer) as otherwise the bulbs are buggers for blowing.
--
Tim Watts

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On 26/12/10 16:30, Tim Watts wrote:

I should add, that will be true for most high power small form halogens, not just the ones I pointed out - so a soft start may be advisable in any case (you need a dimmable SELV PSU but they are cheap enough - TLC list them).
--
Tim Watts

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http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Lighting/Low+Voltage+Downlights/IP44+Low+Voltage+Frosted+Showerlight+Chrome/d220/sd2638/p74972
I believe Tim has covered that part.

http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Lighting/Low+Voltage+Fire+Rated+Downlights/Fire+Rated+Cast+Adjustable+Downlighter+MR16+White/d220/sd2721/p60853
You only need to fit fire rated lights if the ceiling is fire rated.

http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Lighting/Low+Voltage+Downlights/Low+Voltage+IP65+Showerlight+White/d220/sd2638/p87185
As per the previous answer.

That is in front of the light.

http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Lighting/Low+Voltage+Downlights/Electronic+Transformer+12v+60w/d220/sd2638/p55497
I see no reason for you to apologise. Do have a read of
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Halogen_Lighting
or start at http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk and look in lighting as you were having problems with links to the wiki.

It probably will not matter.

http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Lighting/12V+Halogen+Lamps/Sylvania+Halogen+12v+MR16+50w+60+900cd/d220/sd3278/p96626
http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Lighting/12V+Halogen+Lamps/Sylvania+Halogen+12v+MR16+50w+60+900cd/d220/sd3278/p42274
The dichroic ones dump the heat behind them, the aluminium reflectors throw the heat out infront of them.

It is bright enough for above a shower:-)
Merry Christmas
--
Adam



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On Sun, 26 Dec 2010 19:18:14 -0000, "ARWadsworth"
Sorry for the late reply, I've been busy getting on with the plumbing, tiling, etc. The only thing that I have got left to do is the light.
I'm guessing any ceiling between habitable floors is fire rated, e.g. lights in ground floor ceiling with bedrooms above. Whereas the ceiling between the first floor and loft is not fire rated?
But is "if in doubt fit a fire rated one" a good rule to work by?
Is the fire hood to stop the light starting a fire or is it more general than that? Is it that it stops a fire from ANY source passing through the ceiling?

Thanks for the link. I hadn't thought to look for a halogen light wiki. I am amazed how many topics the wiki covers. Thanks to all who contribute to it. That link worked perfectly. For some reason some links appear with a "3D" inserted in them but it is obvious and I delete them to make the page load correctly. It is only some posts that do this, so I guess it must be some combination of my software (agent) and the posters software that occasionally conflict.
Thanks again
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Yes but with different fire rating times for houses of higher storeys than 2.

Yes.
Both the hood and the fire rated light are there to stop the passage of fire between floors not to stop the light causing a fire.

Have you considered asking about this problem on a new thread?
Some of the smart people out there might be able to help. After all they are the same people that contribute to the wiki and they want their efforts to be read
--
Adam



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On Sun, 9 Jan 2011 22:52:38 -0000, "ARWadsworth"
I'll put in on my to-do list. It only happens when certain people post links, not all the time, which is why it is not a major inconvenience. I'm sure it is a conflict between settings in my news reader and theirs. Thanks.
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I see you use Agent, is the following entry in their FAQ any help to you ?
http://www.forteinc.com/agent/faq.php#EFFC9EA52494428D85256C7A001EDDEE "Why do I see "=" or " " signs at the end of many lines in received messages? "The message was posted in Quoted-Printable format, and you have Agent set to display the messages in raw form. In Agent 4.x go to the View menu and toggle off the Display As Raw Message selection. In previous versions of Agent (1.x and 2.0), go to the Message menu to toggle off the Show Raw selection."
Nick
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On Sun, 26 Dec 2010 11:08:43 -0000, "ARWadsworth"

I forgot to say, I found this:
http://www.screwfix.com/prods/65470/Lighting-Lamps/Internal-Lighting/Bathroom-Lighting/Wall-Ceiling-Lights/Philips-White-Circular-Bathroom-Ceiling-Light-60W
The descriptions says it is IP44 but if you read the pdf, that appears to show it is IP44 if mounted on a wall but only IPX3 if mounted on the ceiling. Why would that be and why don;t they make that clearer in the description?
The instructions show some diagrams of how to install it with "OK" printed next to them, and some pictures of how not to do it, with the word "NOK" next to them. Is "NOK" a new word I haven't heard of? Is it the opposite of ok?!
The few bathroom lights I have looked at have ES fittings. I guess because they are made for markets in many countries and everyone except us uses screw fittings? Do any BC ones exist? Having to have Edison screw bulbs means you need twice as many bulbs and might confuse a little old lady.
I notice this lamp has push fittings so a PITA if you want to remove the wire and replace it or the lamp.
TIA
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http://www.screwfix.com/prods/65470/Lighting-Lamps/Internal-Lighting/Bathroom-Lighting/Wall-Ceiling-Lights/Philips-White-Circular-Bathroom-Ceiling-Light-60W
The big cross on the pictures with NOK is the big clue:-)
--
Adam



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On Mon, 27 Dec 2010 10:05:49 -0000, "ARWadsworth"
Thanks. I wasn't in any doubt that "nok" meant not ok but I was wondering whether it was a word anyone here had heard or used before?
Two things I forgot to say in my latest post:
The zone only extended 2.25m above the bath or shower tray (in my case the shower tray). Now as it happens, the ceiling is 2.4m above the shower tray, so does that mean that technically the ceiling is outside of zones and I could put any old light there?
The cable to the shower was 6mm^2, so the most powerful shower I could connect was 9.5kW. This was an improvement on the old 7.5kW model that was there previously. I realise the power is the power of the heater, not the flow, but I was disappointed with the flow compared to our power shower at home. I can't imagine a 10.5kW shower would be much better, so I can't see that I would ever choose an electric shower again.
Does the water from an electric shower count as a powerful jet requiring an ip65 light or would ip44 be enough? I have to say that the seal between the two halves of the shower unit didn't seem that amazing.
Despite these questions, I will err on the safe side and fit the ip65 light as planned, just in case the shower ever gets turned upside down.
It seems the ceiling is two ceilings, one on top of the other. There is the original (?) lathe and plaster and under that someone has screwed plasterboard and skimmed that. Since the plasterboard will (hopefully) be screwed into the joists, is it ok to break a few lathes by using a hole saw to make the hole for the light?
TIA
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Any light within the guidelines:-)

You cannot polish a turd.

The jet refered to is usually one used for cleaning.

Good idea.

Yes, or use a hole cutter.
--
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On Sun, 9 Jan 2011 22:52:42 -0000, "ARWadsworth"
Thanks for the explanation. So for "jet" I should think of a pressure washer? I can't imagine that in a domestic setting anyone cleans their bathroom with one of those!
Thanks again.
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