Are there any quality boilers/manufacturers, at any price?

[Mike Harrison]

Looking around for candidates to replace my 15-odd year old boiler, spent an evening looking around for reviews, comments etc at the few sites that review this sort of thing. This site seemed to have about the most reviews

strikes me that pretty much every manufacturer has some users with horror stories, but of course most of the reviews are from dissatisfied users as happy people won't often bother posting information, and without any indications of the installed base, a small number of samples is not a statistically reliable indicator.

There are clearly a few obvious 'to-avoids' with so many reports of problems, bad service, failure to honour warranties etc. that they can easily be ruled out, e.g. Ferrolli ( many reports of bad customer service and poor parts availability) , Ideal ISAR 35 (>100 reviews with

1-star avarage) , but most of the rest are too far below the noise to be a useful guide.

Although there are a few comments from installers who have installed a large number of a particular model, I suspect that after an initial period they may not see a lot of the longer term problems as users will more likely be talking to the manufacturer's service/warranty people.

Seems to me that apart from some specific models with particular design flaws, probably the most important thing for long term peace of mind is how good the manufacturer is at providing spares and support, combined with ease of repair and parts cost.

If I were looking for a kitchen appliance, I know that going to Bosch, Miele etc. would give me a pretty good chance of getting something reliable at a premium price, however I've yet to find if there are any comparable 'quality brands' when it comes to boilers.

I can do most repairs myself, and not at all worried about electrical/electronics as that's something I know inside out.

So from this perspective, any recommendations, good or to-avoid for a ~30KW condensing Combi where reliability, servicability and manufacturer service are good, even it if costs more?

[Dave Liquorice]

Fuel?

[Mike Harrison]

Gas.

[Doctor Drivel]

Look at the Intergas range. Built like tanks. The combi only has four moving parts. The unit works on DHW even if the pump fails, which is a standard Grundfos available from B&Q, not a £250 special pump only for their model combi like many others. The pump is not used when using DHW, so cheaper to run. No three-way valve. Simple, well built, well designed and well thought out for maintenance. It can even be on an F&E tank in the loft for simplicity. Get the outside weather sensor with it if you want excellent comfort conditions. Some decent deals around for them. They are well priced for what they are.

[Mike Harrison]

Thanks - looks promising - the only complaint I can find anywhere is a flimsy install jig and offset flue, other than that nothing but good words....

[gremlin_95]

evening looking around

stories, but of course

bother posting

of samples is not a

bad service, failure

many reports of bad

with 1-star avarage) ,

number of a particular

longer term problems as

probably the most

providing spares and

etc. would give me a

I've yet to find if

electrical/electronics as that's

condensing Combi where

We have been very happy with our Vaillant, as have quite a few other family members. What is wrong with your current boiler?

[Alan Deane]

evening looking around

stories, but of course

bother posting

of samples is not a

bad service, failure

many reports of bad

with 1-star avarage) ,

number of a particular

longer term problems as

probably the most

providing spares and

etc. would give me a

I've yet to find if

electrical/electronics as that's

condensing Combi where

Vaillant or Worcester-Bosch gets my vote.

[Mr Pounder]

Baxi have been around for a very long time; I used to fit them 45 years ago.

[John Rumm]

evening looking around

stories, but of course

bother posting

of samples is not a

Indeed... self selecting groups are not really that reliable.

Geoff will be along shortly to give you his take (his company refurbishes PCBs and Fans etc for many boilers - and hence gets a much better view of the commonly failing models).

bad service, failure

many reports of bad

with 1-star avarage) ,

Reports would seem to support that the ISARs have a fairly high failure rate, although having said that, I fitted one shortly after they came out (i.e. before the problems became well known), and it worked exceedingly well with only one minor problem in the four or so years that I owned it before selling the house.

number of a particular

longer term problems as

Its interesting that the boiler makers have got very good at inserting themselves into a customer relationship which technically speaking has nothing to do with them! However it suits the installers since it lets them off the hook. Probably not good for their future revenue, but at the same time frees them from the complexities of keeping up to date with the techniques necessary for fault finding on what has become a complex bit of technology, with a sophisticated control system.

probably the most

providing spares and

etc. would give me a

I've yet to find if

electrical/electronics as that's

condensing Combi where

This is anecdotal, rather than based on hard numbers, however:

Vaillant seem to be building a good reputation at the moment, and indeed their kit is very nicely put together. WB was for sometime frequently recommended, but more recent reports seem to suggest the position has been slipping a little.

Others in this group have had good results with Viseman, Man Eco Hometec, & Keston.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Yet another recommendation. How many does this make over the years?

[Andrew Gabriel]

Keston, really?

I have one and it's been OK given that I can DIY fix it (I did install it after all), but it would have been unsuitable for, say, my parents, whose Potterton Suprema has provided a more trouble-free service;-)

Is anyone other than me still running a Keston C25? It was quite popular here when I installed it because Keston supported DIY installers (in those days, condensing boilers were only installed by DIY installers, councils, and housing associations). However, my impression is that they had all died after about 5 years.

The current Keston C36 (?) only ever gets a bad press, as far as I've noticed.

[gremlin_95]

I am sure Ed Sirret used to have a Keston...

I think they have been taken over by Ideal now as a few of their models look exactly like the Ideal Logic range.

Celsius 25 has been superseded by the Q28 but I haven't heard much about them.

[John Rumm]

As is the problem with anecdotal reports ;-)

That may be part of the difficulty. A few folks install them, and we don't hear of further problems. This may mean they have been on the whole reliable, or it may mean their owners are good at fixing them up until the point they scrap them and fit something else!

[Mike Harrison]

A problem I've seen mentioned a few times is that previously good brands have either been taken over, or cut costs too much to remain competitive.

[John Rumm]

Funny how they change isn't it? There was a time that a Glow Worm was the "high flow rate" combi (i.e. 14 lpm!) that he recommended... (or two of them)... what else have we had; Istors, Remeha, Alphas you name it. Each flavour of the month for a bit, and then no further mention!

[mike]

The situation is made worse by fitters recommending brands they either get cheap or are used to fitting. Suggest anything out of the ordinary like Broag or Atmos (or the Eco-Hometec you mentioned) and there's a lot of chin stroking, whistling through teeth and mumblings about sitting in the cold while you wait for spares for 'that foreign stuff'.

Everyone ends up with WB not because it's the best but because no-one got fired for buying IBM.

[Mr Pounder]

Aye.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

I suppose it depends which one comes up on Google first? ;-)

[John Rumm]

Another thing to keep in mind if you are capable of swapping out components for yourself, is that there is a quite a decent industry out there supplying boiler spares. It quite often means that bits can be had relatively easily, whereas finding someone prepared to come fit them can be hard.

[dom]

an evening looking around

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umber of samples is not a

ems, bad service, failure

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ver I've yet to find if

ctronics as that's

KW condensing Combi where

If you mean "at any price" - look at gas-fired Rayburns.

Ignore all the advice based on old-fashioned Rayburns, nowadays they build very efficient boilers, combined with range cookers - which can be operated entirely separately.

Having seen the internals of my (oil-fired) Rayburn when it was installed, build quality is outstanding.

I believe spares availability stretches back to at least the 1960's.