Hot water Faucet still drips everything replaced twice

[tony g]

Help - this is really aggravating,

I have an old Sterling two handle shower faucet with a standard washer/valve-seat arrangement(compression faucet I believe its called, not a cartridge type). The washer on the HOT faucet only lasts about 3-4 months before it drips.

I always replace both the seat and the washer. I have also replaced the whole stem assembly as well as putting in a new washer and seat at the same time. What is causing the leak after such a short period of time? Everything works fine right after the washer and seat on the hot side are replaced, so I know that water is not leaking past the washer due to the seat not being in correctly, etc. Its just that after a few months of use I can feel that more force is needed to shut off the hot water and by about 4 months no matter how hard you tighten the handle (without really torquing it to the point it might bteak off!) the hot water side still drips. Cold side washers will last about 3 years.

Someone had suggested that the water may be too hot but for over 15 years that I have been in the house I was replacing the washer only about once every five years. The water temp is the same as back then, and in any case it was never really scalding hot since its from a tankless coil arrangement on a oil furnace. Also the seat does not appear to have any nicks in it so I don't think that I am damaging the seats when I install them.

What am I doing wrong? Is there anything else I can try short of ripping it out of the wall and getting a new unit? There is no access from the back, I would have to break up the tile. Seems silly to have to do this for a lousy washer.

Thanks, Tony G.

[Mike Grooms]

"tony g"

What you describe is strange. By changing the seat, washer, and even stem, you've done all you can. The only thing I can think of, is that the threads between the seat and the valve body are faulty. This would explain the fact that a few months, it starts leaking again. As an experiment, next time only change the washer. If it still drips, then it's probably the seat threads. If it stops the drip, then just live with changing the washer every few months (it sounds like you've got it down to a science).

If it is the threads on the valve body, then you can either live with changing the seat every few months, or change the faucet. Write back if you decide to change the faucet; there are alternatives to tearing up the ceramic tile. BTW, some companies make seats out of stainless steel instead of brass. Maybe you could try something like that? I'm assuming, of course, that you're using some sort of pipe dope or tape on the seat, aren't you??

[John Harlow]

Perhaps the problem is on the other side of the handle ;)

This same thing started happening to me when my girlfriend moved in; she llikes to use FULL hot water and turn it off with great force.

[Ned Flanders]

I wonder if you have thermal expansion issues. Are you on a well or city water?.

[tony g]

Mike, Sounds like a good suggestion. Since everytime I change both the seat and the washer I can't be sure that the washer is the only culprit. Putting in a new seat of course means that it is getting put back in nice and tight. Maybe the seat is loosening up after a few months due possibly to thermal expansion as suggested by Ned Flanders in post#7. I did put a one or two layers of teflon tape on the valve seat threads last time but perhaps pipe dope would be better.

I would really appreciate hearing about your alternatives to tearing up the ceramic tile. Also are stainless steel seats a normal item carried at a plumbing supply house. Thanks, Tony G

[Mike Grooms]

"tony g"

The thermal expansion mentioned isn't what you think. What Ned thought, I considered it too, is the problem when water expands while it heats. If there's no place for the expanded water to go, it'll force itself through a faucet, washing machine, or T&P valve. If there's a backflow preventer or check valve on the water system, and no expansion tank on the heater, the expanded what has to go somewhere. While it might be a possibility in your case, I can't imagine it happening to a standard faucet with seat and washer. I think the pressure would trip the relief valve every time.

You never mentioned how the washers or seats looked after you removed them. If they don't look too bad, then, again, the seat threads are suspect. You can do the experiments I described and go from there.

If you decide to change the valve, here are two suggestions to avoid expensive ceramic work.

There's a very nice looking stainless steel plate that is designed to cover the holes of a standard two handle shower valve. In the middle is a big hole that holds a single handle faucet. A good plumber can cut out enough tile to remove the old faucet, install the new, but still be coverd by the plate. In this way, you don't have to worry about replacing and matching old tile.

The other alternative is to attack the valve from the other side of the wall. Assuming it's just drywall, fixing that hole is a lot easier than messing with the tile. You might even finish it with an access panel for future problems.

[tony g]

Ned,

You may be onto something concerning thermal expansion issues. Are you thinking that the valve seat is loosening in its threads due to the expansion and contraction on the hot water side?

I have city water, fairly high chlorine content and "hard" water. What is the issue with well vs city water?

Thanks, Tony G

[Mark Monson]

Just for the heck of it, I would check out the possibility that something is preventing the faucet stem from screwing down all the way down to the seat. It could be a burr on the stem threads or even an over-sized washer screw. Another possibility is the original seat may have been higher. Just because the a particular seat has the right threads to screw in doesn't mean it's the right seat. They vary considerably in the distance between bottom and top.

Easy to check. Smear a bit of toothpaste on the face of the seat, then screw the stem down with no washer on it. Pull the stem and you should see toothpaste on the bottom.

MM

[Blackbeard]

In every city in the country, pressure spikes during periods of low-use. Obviously, low use times anywhere are going to be during the wee hours of the morning.

Go buy a test gauge with a hose thread. the gauge will screw directly onto your hose bibb outside. Make sure the gauge has an indicator so even if pressure drops by the time you check the gauge, the indicator will show you the highest pressure during the night. (I've found city pressure go as high as 165-lbs.)

If your pressure spikes, install a PRV (pressure reducing valve). If there is no spike in pressure (nothing significant), then you're going to have to rip out that old shower valve and replace it. Don't need to spin your wheels looking for some sort of secret plumbers trick-fix. Real plumbers don't use trick fixes. We simply fix what is wrong. And we keep our call-backs under control by NOT using trick fixes and not doing half-assed work. Fix it right = no call-backs. You need a new valve chief.

[tony_g]

I guess it's just a matter of principle but I don't want to give up yet. I'm on month #3 of having replaced everything and once again a slow drip is developing. Someone came up with a few other suggestions. What do you guys think?

1. Try using "no-rotate" or swiveling washers. Anyone have any luck with these? Any installation tips would be greatly appreciated.

1. Try stainless steel seats. I noticed that after only a few months of use, a brand new seat has almost a sandpaper like tarnish/coating to it. Would stainless seats prevent this? I think this may be causing the washer to fail so quickly. Does anyone know of a supplier for stainless steel valve seats?

Thanks, T> Help - this is really aggravating,

called,

[Roger Taylor]

As long as the seat is undeformed or unworn, the faucet should shut off. Did you use pipe joint compound on the seat threads when you replaced the seat? (should have) Is the seat fully seated in its socket? Also, faucet needs to be very gently shut off, especially when new. Folks who "crank" the faucet off will quickly abrade, distort, and ruin the new washer. Faucet should be dripless with just a two-finger shutoff torque.

[Ned Flanders]

You did not take the advice we gave you and here you are back with same problem.

surprise surprise.

[tony_g]

I guess i should have said that I did try to take all the advice into consideration. I used teflon tape on both the seat and the valve stem itself. It never leaks right after installation. It always takes about two months before the drip begins. The valve is not being cranked down as best as I can control since i do have children but they have been instructed to close down the valve very gently. I also checked with some toothpaste on the assembly that it is not being restricted from closing.

[stretch]

Tony,

Is it possible that there is something in your water causing the problem? When our water company switched from chlorine to chloramine, we noticed that everthing rubber in our plumbing systems eats up. Toilet flappers won't last a year. Washers fall apart, O-rings too. Washing machine hoses don't last as long as they used too. The o-rings in my high priced dishwasher only lasted 3-years. Check with your water company and see what they use as a disinfectant. Some rubber products are resistant to chloramine, you may try a new brand of washer that is resistant. If the seat is wearing out, there may be grit in the water. Installing a new faucet won't fix that, but a filter might.

Just a thought.

Stretch

[G Henslee]

[Duane Bozarth]

tony_g wrote: ...w/ tale of woe re: subject...

I've not followed this thread, but a comment about grit/sand/etc., wearing seat caught my eye---methinks it's quite likely the seat is worn from erosion from the previous leaking (a very small drip still comes through the minute area between the seat and washer w/ pretty high velocity/pressure) and the problem is a new washer can fill the imperfection for a short time but soon fails.

If possible to reach, you could possibly clean up the seat face s/ a seat-facing tool if that's the case.

[Mark Monson]

Does the seat actually get guttered so you can see a leak path?

If you are really wearing out the brass seats you could try monel (stainless steel) seats sold by Sexauer.

MM

[Ned Flanders]

I have seen this with thermal expansion. It could be caused by your neighbor belive it or not. Are you on city water? What is the water pressure? What kind of hot water you got? Where is tank in relation to this valve? Is the water extremely hot at the sink?

You claim to be replaceing the seats as well as the washers, in fact it looks like you have replaced evarything at least once. The problem is the hot washer wears out.

Are you sure the washer is wearing out? Is it tearing or getting marred?

At this point I'd start trying some different washers. You are not putting grease on them right???

[tony_g]

In answer to your questions: I'm on city water. The hot water is created through a tankless coil arrrangement on an oil-fired furnace which also provides a closed loop for baseboard heat. The furnace is in the basement and the problem faucet is on the second floor through a total run of about 25 ft of copper pipe. Water out of the faucet is not scalding hot. I don't know the actual pressure, but with everyone in the neighborhood watering their lawn, I have never had a problem getting adequate supply of water in the shower so I assume that the pressure is pretty high.

The washers never appear nicked or torn, just a fairly uniform ring where it is being compressed by the seat. I noticed that after only a few months of use, a brand new seat has almost a sandpaper like tarnish/coating to it. The washers I use are red and very hard when new, I have tried the softer black washers but they don't seem to last as long. No grease is being used on the seats and the threads are being wrapped with a few layers of tefflon tape.

Any thoughts on "no-rotate" or swiveling washers. I'm thinking that maybe the sandpaper texture to the seat is creating abrasion against the washer and wearing it out. Anyone ever tried these no-rotate washers? Any installation tips would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks, Tony G.

[Ned Flanders]

you need to check your water pressure. You share town water, your neighbor can affect you. I am sure the pressure is very high, thats typical.

BTW I only use the black washers the colored ones are shit.