Where to get car rear-deck speakers (haven't bought speakers in decades)

[harry newton]

He who is Clare Snyder said on Wed, 06 Dec 2017 21:25:49 -0500:

In California, where I live, when you go to Tahoe, you use the HIGHWAY. It's on the HIGHWAY that the cops force 2WD vehicles to put on chains.

The whole point of using chains is that you're going SLOWLY in deep snow. Same as the ONLY TIME that FWD handles better than RWD.

Deep snow isn't 1 inch. It's more than that. It's a few inches. Maybe five. Maybe six. I don't know. But it's not one inch. One inch is nothing.

In Tahoe, it snows 18 inches in a night routinely.

How fast are you going when you're driving in six inches of snow?

You FWD guys don't think logically. It doesn't matter if it's a highway or not when the snow is 6 inches deep.

That's the ONLY time FWD handles better than RWD.

I lived for 40 years in snow country and we did just fine without chains, but that's how they do things out here in California.

[Vic Smith]

FWD has better traction. Period. It's simple physics. How much snow? However much it takes to affect traction with the road. How about 1/16"? How about 1/32" of ice? I would often lose traction with my RWD vehicles when the road got slick. That's why I had to put sandbags in the trunk or truck bed in the winter. I've driven to work in 6" of snow. RWD with 3-400 lbs of sand in the trunk. The limit with deep snow is when it's high enough to hit the undercarriage. You'll lift the tires enough so they can't get traction. With FWD I don't need to put 3-400 lbs of sand in the trunk.

[gfretwell]

The problem is, when you lose traction you lose both propulsion and steering.

[Clare Snyder]

They outlawed studs here way back in about '72

[Clare Snyder]

You haven't driven on the 400 series highways in Ontario, obviously. It takes a foot of snow to slow down some of these clowns

Not deep gravel at all - just a loose layer of "ball bearings" on the top - or a wet silty sandy slick

And that does NOT make front wheel drive handling inferior as you seem to believe - only different. And when you know how totake advantage of that "difference" it CAN become an "advasntage". No, you can't "power slide" the rear end around on turns to tighten the radius - but that's about the only "handling deficiency" I've found - and if you know how, you CAN "hang the tail loose" on a FWD car too - particularly if you have a hand operated parking brake. (but it's not essential to the maeuver if you have enough power)

[Clare Snyder]

Rear rngine rear drive has the same traction advantage, but with that nasty rear polar momrnt of inertia - and the tendancy of the floor pan to toboggan untill the rear wheels leavethe ground. With FWD you can basically back out of anything you can drive into.

With the fiberglass cap and box liner on my Ranger it gets around pretty good - the Haks don't hurt either. The taurus is more sure-footed with the snows - and didn't even do too bad the years we only had all seasons on it as long as the snow was less than about 4 inches and not too wet.

[Clare Snyder]

And when you lose rear traction on a rwd steering doesn't do you much good when the tail can go wherever it wants - one problem I found with the Ranger having Posi. When it starts to spin, there is no "rudder" left - - -

[Clare Snyder]

Which doesn't count as nEXPERIENCE. You have never learned to actually DRIVE a front wheel drive vehicle

And yet you feel qualiified to state that front wheel drive has no advantage??????

I drove back and forth to work EVERY DAY in the winter through some of the worst winters south-central ontario has experienced - and I drove front wheel drive cars in competition - successfully, I might add. I think I'm a LITTLE more qualified to evaluate the driving characteristics of front wheel drive cars - - -

I can remember breaking drifts over the hood of the old ex-army 1943? Dodge power wagon on MANY occaisions - and it's what's left on the road AFTER the plough has removed 20 inches of snow that gets challenging. When you have 3 inches of hardpack, with either another inch or two of "slop" oir a good accumulation of freezing rain that things get REALLY interesting - or when you hit that invisible patch of "black death" at speed - - - . Untill you've driven front wheel drive in winter conditions, don't go making yourself look like a fool

- - - -

[hubops]

< snips >

.. don't mention white-outs. I find them terrifying - way worse than the poorest road conditions. Perhaps modern technology could address this with collision avoidance type stuff ? I wonder how well the driver-less cars cope with white-outs ? John T.

[Ed Pawlowski]

Sure they are. The SUV drivers with AWD. You see them in the ditches on the side of the road after they pass you.

[trader_4]

Lol. That's what I see here too. We slow down and use awd for extra safety. But there are plenty of drivers out there, mostly young, who think awd means that an SUV can still safely do 70 on slick roads.

[Ed Pawlowski]

Chains were the way to go years ago but not so much in many places today. They clear the roads quickly and you'd be bumping along on your chains in very little snow. Where I live in CT, close to MA, minutes after the snow stops you can easily drive most anywhere. Exceptions are a big snowfall, like 18" or more.

Chains limit you to about 25 mph, a detriment when it is clear enough for 50+.

[notbob]

Agree, Ed.

It's the tires. Michelins are what usta answer, but they also cost a whole bunch more $$$$!

About 10 yrs ago, I brought my mom out to CA during the Winter. I drove her 4WD T100 Toyota. Michelins all around.

We got to Truckee Pass and the CHP was turning EVERYONE around to spend the night in Reno (US 80). After a 5 hr wait, we did like everyone else and spent the night in Reno.

Next morning was bright and sunny and we'd get to pass, IF we had the proper equipment. Since it was a 4WD Toyota and was shod with Michelin all weather tires, we got a pass (over the pass!). I drove the next 20 miles on green ice. Never took it out of rear wheel drive (2WD) and passed everyone --except some guy in a 2WD Toyota p/u. He jes blew past me. Too fast to even see his tires (no chains).

I hit the brakes, once, jes to see what would happen, at speed, on ice. Damned iff'n that T100 didn't stop like it was on dry pavement. That sold me on high quality tires. ;)

Unfortunately, Michelin quit making smaller tires. First to go were

13" tires (my pre-90s Civic). Then 14" tires. Not sure what their min size is, now.

BTW, the brand-new chains we bought in Reno (just in case) are still in their original canvas bag, unused. I can't give 'em away! 8|

nb

[Ed]

Yup, they're usually the first one to the scene of the accident.

[rbowman]

The Mac and Jack Speedway?

[harry newton]

He who is Clare Snyder said on Thu, 07 Dec 2017 12:06:19 -0500:

It's basic physics.

[harry newton]

He who is notbob said on 7 Dec 2017 21:06:26 GMT:

Everything depends but what you said makes sense.

They don't often stop EVERYONE on US 80 but when they do, that's it. There's nothing you can do but get off the highway where they tell you to.

Most of the time they just look to see that you have 4WD and that's it. If you have 2WD, they force you to have chains.

That's what they do "most" of the time. Not always. But most of the time. So I carry chains.

It's no big deal. You put them on when they tell you to. Usually it's a sloppy mess - but that's the tradeoff of not having 4Wd all the time where it never snows outside of a ski trip.

4WD in the non-snow areas costs more in every single way possible.

• More weight

• More expense in repairs

• More friction

• More initial cost

• Lower gas mileage

• Harder to work on

There is no advantage whatsoever to 4WD outside of a ski trip to Tahoe, here in California.

[rbowman]

They're legal here from 1 Oct to 31 May. There are a lot fewer cars and more miles of semi-maintained roads so the state figures the minimal road surface damage is better than sweeping up debris all winter. Besides, even in the city most of the roads are chip seal so they're not expecting a long life.

[trader_4]

Basic physics is that the holding force of tires on any surface is proportional to the weight upon those tires, ie FWD has better traction and it's not limited to only when you're in 6"+ of snow.

[Clare Snyder]

untill it becomes the 4 nothing 1 parkinglot.- 9 lanes wide in both directions across the top of hogtown.