On Tuesday, October 24, 2017 at 11:46:06 PM UTC-4, Blake Snyder wrote:

It's not even close to any of the above. I have all of the above. I use all of them an order of magnitude more often than I need to put new tires on my car. I get tires on average maybe once in 10 years. Some cars got one new set, then they were sold and I got a new car that had new tires.
And then you have the size of the equipment, it's weight. Are you saying that the space needed and the places you can store a leaf blower and tire dismounting eqpt is the same? The tire eqpt needs to be bolted to the garage floor. And finally, after all that, you still can't balance the tires you just mounted, so now where do you go? Sounds like a trip to the tire shop, where they have to take the tires off the car, doing much of the same work over again.

Not many people change tires or fixes flats anywhere near 10 times a year. I don't. I'm sure Ed doesn't either. I'm an order of magnitude below that level.
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On Wed, 25 Oct 2017 07:27:13 -0700 (PDT), in < trader_4 wrote:

How long do your tires last? Two years for me, but maybe double that for you?
How many cars do you own? At least two, right? Maybe four or five, but at least two for a couple.
Do the math. Two cars. Four years per set of tires, with one flat thrown in.
That's five mounts for each car every four years. Right? Which is five mounts every two years for a couple, right?
That's a bare minimum, right?
Over your 60-year driving life, that's 150 mounts, at the barest of minimums (it could easily be double that if you have kids).
If you assume bare-bones pricing of \$20 per mount, that's #3,000 USD in cost for the absolute minimum of mounts (more likely double that for a family).
You can buy a lot of tools for \$3,000 ...

I was typing as I was reading. You get *crazy* mileage on your tires, if you drive anywhere near the average for the USA.
Googling for the average, it varies: <https://www.fool.com/investing/general/2015/01/25/the-average-american-drives-this-much-each-year-ho.aspx <https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/ohim/onh00/bar8.htm <http://cars.lovetoknow.com/about-cars/how-many-miles-do-americans-drive-per-year etc.
It's mostly between 10K and 16K per year on average, so let's take 1000 miles per month as an easily agreed upon average.
At 10 years and 1000 miles per month, that's 120K miles per set of tires, which is crazy mileage.
All the power to you if you get 10 years out of tires (especially since the RMA recommends replacing any tire 6 years old because they're not designed to outlast 6 years).
Basically you have a lot in common with people who take the bus. You don't need to ever change tires. <https://www.cars.com/articles/2013/05/how-long-do-tires-last/ <https://www.edmunds.com/car-care/how-old-and-dangerous-are-your-tires.html <https://auto.howstuffworks.com/under-the-hood/car-part-longevity/how-long-car-tires-last.htm etc.
But the rest of us don't get crazy tire mileage & lack of oxidation.

You gotta be kidding! Everything you say seems to me to not make the slightest bit of logical sense.
My wife does the same thing.
I long ago figured out that whenever *everything* someone says make absolutely no logical sense, then that means that what they're objecting to is that they don't *want* to do it.
Why don't you just admit you don't *want* to change tires?
The leaf blower is *way* more difficult to store than the tire-changing tools. Are you crazy? There's no comparison (and yes, I have a leaf blower so I know).
The leaf blower can NOT be stored outside (ask me how I know that the straps will fall apart from the sun, and the motor will rust from the rain). It's far more bulky than the bead breaker, but the bead breaker can be flung over the wall into a pile outside and *still work fine*.
Try that with your delicate leaf blower.
Same with the mounting tool, which stays outside in one spot and just sits there. No maintenance ever necessary. Not once. Same with the balancer, but I keep that inside 'cuz it's not made out of steel, but aluminum.
As an obvious summary, storing a leaf blower is nothing like storing a hunk of steel. If you don't understand that, then really, your argument is made up of so much false logic that I have to wonder what your *real* reasons are.
I think you just don't like the job. And that's OK.
Just admit it to yourself (you don't have to admit it to me).

Again and again and again you are saying you don't like the job. And that's fine.
But you're wrong on all your 'facts' because the tool only needs four sunken female threads in concrete or asphalt, where, in my case, they're outside on the sidewalk outside the house.
Nobody would keep it bolted in their garage so for you to keep saying that just means you want to throw imaginary hurdles in front of your decision not to use the tools.
Why can't you just admit to yourself that the tools are not the problem. The tools cost nothing compared to the cost of paying someone to do the job. The tools are easier to store than your common leaf blower is. The job is as easy as any other job you do on a car.
Your *real* reason for throwing up all these imaginary hurdles is that you don't like the job. And that's fine. Nobody told you to like the job.
But you should be true to yourself (no need to admit it to me, as I can tell from all the imaginary hurdles you throw up).

I noticed you said "you can't balance" the tire, which is too easy to refute, so I'll help you out with your imaginary hurdles by adding the one *real* hurdle in the process.
You can't *dynamically* balance the tires at home. Rest assured, you have *no problem* statically balancing them.
My tires are balanced statically to the smallest amount of an ounce. But they're not dynamically balanced *prior* to re-mpounting them.
But wait! There's more *logic* to be had.
You can easily *test* dynamic balance! Yup. It's easy.
Guess how you *test* tires that were just mounted for dynamic balance?
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On 10/24/2017 11:46 PM, Blake Snyder wrote:

Tire changing equipment is pretty much used for changing tires. That is job done very two to three years. Sure, I could ve a few bucks going to Tire Rack instead of my local dealer, but the money for equipment is better serving me in the stock market between tire changes.

True, I have no desire to change tires but would do so if it saved me a LOT of money. It doesn't. What other functions does the equipment do? Blow leaves? Cut branches?

Show me the numbers. On average, I change tires every 30 months, fix a flat once every five years.

I don't change tires ten time a year. Maybe 1/30th that. I do happily own a lot of tools I use ten times a year.

Again, show me the numbers. One of us is wrong and you can easily prove it. Four tires every 30 months. What is the payback? Mounting and balance is about \$15 per tire. That is \$240 every 10 years.
Harbor Freight manual changer aside, the payback is about 20 years for used equipment.
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On Wednesday, October 25, 2017 at 11:36:18 AM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

And don't forget the "manual" part. As I said before, I changed tires at a gas station when I was a kid. We had an air powered changer to break the bead. It took considerable force. I never tried using one that was not power assisted, but I'd suspect there are issues. We also had other things that make fixing a leak easier, eg a trough with water big enough to put a tire in to find the leak, devices to get tubeless tires to seal to the rim if they would not easily seat themselves, etc.
It's fine if you want to do it at home, but it's not worth it to me for all those reasons and the few times I need to do it. It's not at all like a leaf blower that I use frequently, can store almost anywhere, takes little space and doesn't need to be bolted to the floor.
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On Wed, 25 Oct 2017 09:03:30 -0700 (PDT), in < trader_4 wrote:

Breaking the first bead and seating the last bead are the only two steps that take any appreciable force.
That force is supplied in both cases with "levers", not air, in the home equipment.
Any adult male *easily* has the necessary force to push on the lever on a passenger car tire.
I've done three types of tires, where the force range is the following: 1. The japanese econocar tires are the easiest (they practically fall off) 2. The low-profile euro performance sedan tires are slightly harder 3. But SUV tires are the hardest of all (yet still within a man's grasp)
I wouldn't even think of doing a large commercial truck tire.

I don't think you show a grasp of the power of levers yet. The force needed for *passenger* tires is well within that of a man.
Just think logically about it. Google for people doing it at home. You see guys doing it in slippers and pajamas for heaven's sake. Now I don't recommend that, but you don't see anyone saying the tools don't work on passenger tires.
So why are you intimating what isn't a fact? I think you just don't like the job.
You don't have to like the job. Nobody forced you to like the job.
But don't throw up imaginary "force" hurdles because there are things called "levers" which any normal man has the strength to use.
You just don't like the job. And that's ok.
You can be true to yourself.

I have a pool, so I clean the tire and drop it into the hot tub and that's perfect for getting in there and spinning the tire slowly to look for a leak.
In *practice* you almost never need to do that because just spraying soap on the tread after pumping the tire up usually betrays the leak anyway, as does a visual inspection with a worn-out screw head being obvious in many cases.
But a valve leak requires dunking or a lot of soap if you don't dunk.
As for getting the bead over the rim, the last bead is the only hard part where I bring in a "spoon" to hold one end in place.
Mounting that last bead was harder before I learned about the drop center tricks, so, I admit that the only part of the entire tire-changing operation that takes any brains is that mounting of the last bead.
Getting it to pop into place is child's play but sometimes takes a lot of jiggling. What I do is screw on the air after removing the schrader valve core (but you don't really have to), and then that gets the air in fastest as I jiggle the tire with both hands.
I've never had a tire not seat, but in the past, I also used the redneck methods, which work, but are dangerous (such as the carb cleaner lighter trick). Those redneck bead-seating methods work. And they work fast. Too fast for my liking. I'll take the 30 second air-compressor bead seating method over the instantaneous carb-cleaner-explosion method any day.

Exactly. You don't want to *do* the job. All your other hurdles (e.g., force) are bogus.
The real reason you're throwing up imaginary hurdles is that you just don't *like* the job, and that's ok. You can be true to yourself.

You don't get it if you say that, but I already explained that my Echo leaf blower is *far* more effort to maintain and store than are *any* of the steel tools lying outside that I use to change tires.
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On Wed, 25 Oct 2017 17:31:36 -0000 (UTC), Blake Snyder
a lot of "drivel" snipped.

Try seating a new tire that's been stacked for a few months on a wide-ish rim without a "speed inflator" You can bounce till you are silly, and jiggle 'till you giggle, and it will NOT go on. Particularly without removing the schrader valve. Being able to blast air in between the rim and the tire bead is almost a requirement. On a bias tire, wrapping a rope around the middle of the tire and twisting would spread the beads, but on a steel belted radial it can often be futile.

And if you want to mout my 225-70 tires on my 8" wide rims you'll be sweating and turning the air blue - which is why I won't even try without proper equipment - and why I paid to have mine mounted.

And you are being an ass.

And you are an idiot if you leave your steel tools lying around outside - particularly with the weather we have around here.
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On 10/25/2017 12:03 PM, trader_4 wrote:

I last bought tires in May. Next set will be at least 2 1/2 to 3 years from now. I use my battery leaf blower four times this week. We use the side entrance to the family room and I clear the leaves often so we don't track them in.
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On Wed, 25 Oct 2017 13:35:29 -0400, in < Ed Pawlowski wrote: > I last bought tires in May. Next set will be at least 2 1/2 to 3 years

I tried battery operated outdoor tools, such as the battery operated 8" chain saw from Home Depot, where, I'd recommend NOBODY ever use that thing as it's just a waste compared to a decent Stihl or Husky gas powered chainsaw.
You see? That's why you want advice from experienced people.
In my experience, a battery operated leaf blower wouldn't last anywhere what I'd need it to last, unless I had a *lot* of batteries. Mine is a two stroke Echo packpack which I've had for about 5 years since the last one broke (the last one was that long-tube type with an electric cord, which just didn't cut the mustard).
I generally use the Echo twostroke a few times a year, and when I do, it takes usually two tanks of gas to do the job that I let pile up.
In fact, I probably use the leaf blower almost exactly as often as I use the tire changer, although I never offer to blow leaves from my neighbor's lawns and driveways and roadways, so, that might be a difference.
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On Wed, 25 Oct 2017 11:36:14 -0400, in < Ed Pawlowski wrote: > Tire changing equipment is pretty much used for changing tires. That is

Your argument is toast before you started, because anyone who says that they'd rather invest in the stock market than (do something), is just saying that they don't want to (do something) because the stock market can beat *anything* you ever do at home, e.g., * the stock market can beat mowing the lawn * the stock market can beat cleaning the closet * the stock market can bet vacuuming the pool * the stock market can beat raking leaves * the stock market can beat changing your oil * the stock market can beat fixing a broken bicycle seat * the stock market can beat degooping glass jars your wife likes * the stock market can beat sewing a patch over a favorite blanket * the stock market can beat using shoe goop to repair kids' sneakers etc.
Anyone and everyone using the classic "stock market" argument is merely saying nothing other than they just don't like doing the job.
And that's ok. But why can't you admit that you just don't want to do the job? Why lie to yourself?
You're not lying to us. We *know* the answer the moment you bring up the stock market - because it's the *classic* argument of *anyone* who doesn't want to do the job - and has been since forever.
Let's just do some math, shall we?
My neighbor bought a tire for her japanese van at some shop, and complained to me it cost \$220 out the door. I was shocked. I looked up her tires, which, on Simple Tire, were \$60 each, with no tax and free shipping.
That's a true story, but of course, the numbers are atrocious, so I don't expect you to believe me.
Why don't you pick a common van or common Japanese econosedan and tell me what size those tires are and I'll do the math for you.
Here's a rough estimate of the math: 1. How long do tires last? Mine are 2 years but trader's are 10 years. Let's pick 5 years (bearing in mind 6 years is the oxidation limit). 2. Let's assume rotation with spare, or maybe one flat, so that's 5 tires. 3. Let's assume two car family (but many are bigger, and few smaller). 4. Let's assume 60-year driving life of each of us.
That's 120 separate mounts.
At \$20 per mount, that's 2,400 dollars, which is about ten times the cost of the tools.
Now, you'll tell me you can make \$2,400 on the stock market in ten minutes, and I won't disagree with you. But if the stock market was so lucrative for you, you'd sit in bed all day and have personal groomers wash you and bathe you and make food for you and buy new shoes every day, etc.
There's a *reason* people *do things* on alt.home.repair, and it's not because they compare everything they do with what they can make on the stock market.
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On 10/25/2017 1:31 PM, Blake Snyder wrote:

I don't have a problem with that. If I can invest and make more money not buying little used tools it seems smart to me. While you are sweating in July changing a tire, I sit in my air conditioned house while the shop does it for me. Need an oil change? While you crawl under your car I use the loaner the dealer left me when he picked up my car to take for service. When you buy the right car, it costs no extra though I'm sure it is included in there.

Lie? No, I don't like doing those jobs but I do what I have to. I do woodworking as a hobby and it is more fun than cleaning a closet.

OK, I can invest in real estate and other investments if you want to take out the stock market.
Give ten people \$100 each and it will be used 10 different ways. some will waste in on cigarettes, others a nice dinner. You can buy a \$100 tool that will save you that over the next 20 years, but I can turn that hundred into 200 in that time and spend \$40 of it to save doing labor. At the end of 10 years you have a tool and save maybe \$40 or \$50 while I have the original hundred, an extra 50 or so and did not skin my knuckles trying to get a tire off a wheel. I guess we have different lifestyles.

I don't doubt your numbers. She should do some better shopping and probably could have had a much better price.

Well you came close. I do get up rather than lay in bed all day. I have good income, yet have no job. I don't need one. I don't always make \$2400 in ten minutes but certainly can in the time frame you are using.

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On Wed, 25 Oct 2017 15:45:04 -0400, in < Ed Pawlowski wrote: > I don't have a problem with that. If I can invest and make more money

I don't have any problem whatsoever with you not wanting to (do things); but then why do you argue so much about people who (do things), especially on alt.home.repair, of all places to be a naysayer?

And yet, you can make far more money on the stock market than you can woodworking.
My only point on your stock-market analogy is that anyone who makes that is simply proclaiming that they don't want to (do things).
They're not lying to us. They're lying to themselves. It's classic.

I don't think you understood a word I said, if you change "stock market" to "real estate". You don't see that the argument is that you don't want to do the task, and not how much money you make in the time it takes you to do the task.
Otherwise, nobody would do anything on alt.home.repair for heaven's sake. We'd all be selling real estate instead of fixing things.

What you're saying is the classic argument of someone who doesn't want to do the job. It works for cleaning toilet bowls as well as for changing tires.
It's the classic argument. We've heard it a billion times.
Every time it's used, it has *nothing* to do with the task but of the person's *dislike* of the task.

What's different about us is that I'm not lying to myself *why* I enjoy the thrill of being able to change my own tires at will.
By way of contrast, *every* argument you posit shows simply that you don't *like* the task, but that you won't admit that to yourself, so you throw up myriads of imaginary barriers that are patently untrue.

Well, I'm sure all of us at one point in time took the *convenient* way out, which is likely what she did. She was there. They had her tires off the car. They sold her on a new tire. And she figured she was already in the mud so why not just slosh it out to the other side.
We've all been there, and done that.
Personally, I *love* the *freedom* I have to buy any set of tires I want from any supplier (I used to use Tire Rack but Simple Tire is far better on pricing, shipping, and tax nowadays, and for the *same* tires).
The UPS guy knows me by name, and he knows *exactly* where to drop them off as no UPS driver ever didn't know a load of tires when it's in the back of his truck!
At my leisure, I chock, lift, support the car, remove the wheels, pop the old tires off, pop on the new tires, statically balance them, pop them back on the vehicle, and take it for a highway test drive.
One other beauty, but which involves risk in the rainy season, is that this freedom to change my tires whenever I want, practically also allows me to get another few thousand miles out of a set of tires, simply because I can wear them to the bones.
Realizing that slicks have *better* dry traction than treads, we can do that here where I live because it never rains for 80% of the year, but if you live in the weekly-rain areas, you can't ride on the slicks like I can.
But that's just an aside, because the screamers will scream hypocrisy that I ride on slicks if I feel like it and yet I choose to inspect the inside of a tire when I repair it.
Such is the thrill of having choices, which having the tools allows me.
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On 10/25/2017 5:08 PM, Blake Snyder wrote:

There are a lot of jobs I don't like to do. Some I do anyway, others I pay to have done. There are other factors too. I just had a bedroom painted. i could have easily done it myself, but, I paid someone to do it because he needed the money to pay his electric bill. I saved doing labor, his electric bill is paid.

I've done many things that I don't like doing for various reasons. I do it because I can save a lot of money or because I can to a better job. It just does not make fiscal sense for me to chnge tires. Your numbers don't work.

Nope, nothing to do with like or not. Is jst makes no sense while you seem to orgasm over it. Go ahead and enjoy it.

I'm happy for you.

Fantasy or fetish. Where is the line?
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On Wed, 25 Oct 2017 17:31:38 -0000 (UTC), Blake Snyder

And all you want to do IS argue. So enough already.
You are back in the bib buddy.

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On Tue, 24 Oct 2017 10:20:27 -0700 (PDT), in < trader_4 wrote:

You prove my point with every post that people who haven't done it are telling lies to themselves and to others.
Your *objections* to the tools are all incorrect. You're just guessing, and you're just guessing wrong.
The real reason you don't have the tools is that you don't want to do the job, which is ok. But just be true to yourself as to why and don't propagate incorrect assumptions about the size of your tools.
The bead breaker and balancer are both smaller than, lighter than, and as mobile as a good floor jack is. The mounting/unmounting tool is about the size of a small drill press.
The mounter/unmounter does have to be bolted down but you can use recessed female threads sunk into concrete inside or outside so that it can be removed if you don't have the space to just leave it outside all the time.
The real reason people don't have the tools isn't the cost or the size, but that they don't want to do the job, which is fine. But it's not that the tools are bulky because they're not any more bulky than any other tool you have in the shed.
You also need a compressor, by the way, but many people already have one for their air tools, and they're no more bulky than the balancer is anyway.

Every one of your statements is dead wrong, but you're welcome to your opinion, but then, so am I welcome to explain why you're dead wrong.
The "bulkiness" of the three tools is no more bulky than tools you *already* have in the shop (see above explanation).
Mounting to the garage floor is not needed. My mounter is mounted outside, but it could have been mounted anywhere if I unbolt it after use (I use it so much that I keep it bolted in, but I could easily remove it any time).
Balancing is a piece of cake given that you *mark* the location on the rim beforehand and you put it back and check the static balance. You're only adding a patch, which weighs, what?

Well then, why did you get everything wrong? BTW, it's fine that you make everything up. And it's even fine that you get everything wrong as a result.
All I'm asking you is to be true to yourself. The real reason you're against the tools is that you don't want to do the job.
Just as some people don't want to clean out their closets, you don't want to mount tires.
That's fine. But don't make up the fact that closets are too bulky to clean out simply because you don't like to do the job.
Just be honest with yourself as to why you're throwing imaginary hurdles in the air as to why *you* don't want to own tools to do the job.

The question was really simple. It still is. Anyone can guess at an answer (I already did guess). I was *hoping* (beyond hope it seems) to find someone who didn't just guess.
I wanted to ask someone who had actually done the job where *they* get their patchplugs from, in small quantities.
If nobody has bought them and used them, then nobody can help me. It's really that simple.

You must know that *every* tire professional will laugh at that answer. You must know that it's *impossible* to do a *safe* job without looking at the *inside* of the tire.
If you don't know that, then I'm wasting my time talking to you because *everyone* knows that and *nobody* could possibly logically refute me.
Sure, you can *guess* and *assume* the tire hasn't been damaged on the inside - but you're just guessing.
Worse. You guessed dead wrong on *every* count.

This rhetorical question shows that you can't help anyone with your attitude that only a *guess* from someone who has never once done the job correctly will be able to help me.
If someone has the experience, they will know the answer. If they don't have the experience, their guess is worse than mine is.
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On Tue, 24 Oct 2017 16:48:44 -0000 (UTC), Blake Snyder

Well Blake, I've likely fixed as many tires as pretty well anyone else on this list (24 years in "the business") - but I don't have room for a tire machine at home, and at my age I'm not relishing dismouting and rmounting tires on alloy rims with a set of spoons. I know I can do it - I've done it before when necessary and would still do it if I HAD to - but generally I don't HAVE to any more - so I don't. I DID break the bead on my wife's Taurus wheel to clean up a bead leak on the weekend by using a scissors jack under the frame of the truck - but when I got a small puncture in my Nokian snow tire on the truck, I just dropped it off at my local Nokian dealer and took advantage of the free repair feature of their road hazard warrantee. Dropped it off on the way to the office and picked it up at lunch. I have access to a tire changer - about a 20 minute drive away - and that's where the plugs I source end up - for use by my friend who owns the farm. - and where I can do repairs if I NEED to on a weekend or holiday.
Usually it's just more convenient to have someone else do it and pay the price.
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On Tue, 24 Oct 2017 21:47:17 -0400, in < wrote:

There are two kinds of tools, and most homeowners only own one kind.
The pro tools and the homeowner tools. The pro tools you used are *huge* compared to the homeowner tools.
As just one example, look at the *lift* at a typical garage. It must cost \$10K right? How much does your floor jack in your garage cost? Maybe \$150 right? A set of drive-up ramps costs, what? Another \$50?
Look at the *size* of those the respective tools. The pro lift is about the length of the entire vehicle. The homeowner floor jack & ramps pack in the corner of the garage.
We're not talking about pro tools here. We're talking about homeowner tools here.
The homeowner tools to change, fix, and statically balance are no bigger, no costlier, no different than any other typical home tool.
Here's what you need (some of which most people already have). * A floor jack, chocks, stands, wrenches, & "spoons". * A compressor (which you have if you have air tools) * A bead breaker (which is smaller & lighter than a floor jack) * A mounter/unmounter (which is about the size of a light drill press) * A static balancer (which is about the size of a tub vacuum cleaner)
The argument that the tools for changing tires are bulkier than other tools you already have in your garage or shed or shop is just not true.

What you're saying is that you don't *want to*, since everyone *has to* change tires when they wear out and everyone *has to* fix a flat when they get one.
Since you *do* have to change tires, and since you *do* have to fix flats, then all you're saying is that you don't *want to*, which is fine.

I've seen *every* redneck way of breaking (and seating) the bead, and I've tried a few of them (like driving over on a flat board) and I'll tell you, a fifty-dollar bead breaker will change your life in a split second.
For fifty bucks, you can forget all the redneck solutions to bead breaking!

If all the tools ever did was fix flats, then I would agree with you that the tool would likely not be worth their storage costs. The tools themselves are practically free, so the cost of the tools is nothing (about \$300 bucks for everything that you don't already have).
How much do your tools cost? Are *none* of them three hundred bucks?
I have a wood chipper, for example, that costs me \$650 at Lowes. It's far bigger and bulkier than *any* tire-changing tool I own. My drill press is more costly and bulky than *any* of my tire-changing tools. My wet/dry vacuum cleaner is much bulkier than the balancer is. My floor jack is far heavier than the very light bead breaker is.
All I'm saying is that the homeowner tire changing tools are no bulkier, no more expensive, and no more troublesome to store (since all but the balancer I store outside) than *any* of your other tools are.

I understand as a lot of people tell me it's more convenient to hire a gardener to mow their lawn. They'd rather pay than mow.
That makes complete sense.
But those people who would rather pay than do will not likely offer the best advice on what a good lawn mower is, right?
In most cases, if you asked them for the best lawnmower parts, and if they've never fixed their lawnmower, then their guess would be worse than your guess, right?
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On Tuesday, October 24, 2017 at 11:46:02 PM UTC-4, Blake Snyder wrote:

Just what I need more items that are the size of another floor jack, a drill press, and a shop vac, that I use once every three years. And that has to be bolted down to the floor. And with all that, it only statically balances the tires, while I can get them dynamically balanced at the shop when they install them. Oh, and then they will rotate and balance them for free for the life of the tires.

I don't think anyone said they were more bulky than certain other tools, just that they are bulky and they need to be BOLTED down to the floor.

It would take me a decade to break even. And that includes the shop doing dynamic balancing. Have all that stuff, taking up space, do all the work, to break even in ten years? No, don't think so. And there are other issues. For example, the shop disposes of the tires for me. If the shop doesn't mount the tire, do they still warranty them? What happens if you buy a tire online and you have a problem? I get free rotation and balancing for the life of the tires.

Well, that's demonstrably false. I have a pair of pliers. They cost less, store easier and are orders of magnitude less bulky. IDK of a single tool set that costs so much, is so limited, that takes up so much space, that needs to be bolted to the floor, that does so little.
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On Thu, 26 Oct 2017 09:36:49 -0700 (PDT), in < trader_4 wrote:

The fact you keep *forgetting* that it doesn't have to be bolted down ot the floor is what is odd.
Why can't you understand that? Do you not comprehend the simplest of things?
It's fine that you can't comprehend simple things, but then you can't argue things either, because *all* your arguments are wrong.
Think about what I'm telling you.
For a whole lot of reasons, *every* one of your arguments are wrong. When that happens with my wife, I figure out that there's *something* else bothering her ... which seems to be the case with you.
Since the tools do NOT have to be bolted down, and even when they are bolted down (which does make them easier to use), they only need to be bolted down for the hour it takes to do the four tires, and then you can *unbolt* it (just like you pack up your tools when you're done with them).
The fact you can't fathom someone *packs up* their tools is the funny thing.
Did you ever use a ladder, for example, in your entire life? Never?
Well, let me tell you something ... you can "pack it up" when you're done with it. It doesn't have to be in the A shape or in the extended shape all the time.
Anyone who thinks all their tools have to be in the operating condition at all times .... seems to be just making up hurdles that don't exist.
Why don't you just tell *yourself* the truth? You don't like the job.
You don't have to like it. But stop making up imaginary hurdles that just don't exist.

The fact that you don't know how to unpack and pack up tools is obvious, but why do you use your ignorance of setup as a prime argument for not wanting to do the job.
It's *OK* that you don't like the job. You can stop lying to yourself. (We already know you don't like it.)
It's funny that you can't tell yourself the truth. Your argument is that a tool has "setup" costs of a few minutes and that's a major reason you don't like the tool.
Guess what? A ladder has a setup cost too. So does the bicycle I have hanging upside down in my garage. As does the router and router table.
What planet do you live on that you *expect* people to believe you when all you're really doing is lying to yourself that you don't enjoy tool setup efforts.

You live on some planet where the dollar that it costs to dispose of a tire properly is a hurdle?
You live on some planet where the manufacturer whom you bought the tire from doesn't warrant them? (Hell, they're all *registered* with the government for heaven's sake, for safety reasons.)
Whenever my wife throws up the type of *imaginary* hurdles you constantly throw up, it just means something *else* is bugging her.
Same with you.
What is it that is bugging you such that you imagine hurdles which don't exist?
I think you just don't *like* the job.
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On Thursday, October 26, 2017 at 2:15:26 PM UTC-4, Blake Snyder wrote:

https://www.harborfreight.com/manual-tire-changer-69686.html
6. Do not use without mounting to floor. Mount only to a secure, level surface able to support weight of Manual Tire Changer and tire assembly. 7. Verify that mounting surface has no hidden utility lines before drilling or driving screws.
And I've done tire dismounting, so I know how they come off, it's obvious that if the tire changer isn't bolted down, the whole damn thing is going to move while you try to get the tire off the rim. You really should stop while you're behind.
Next!
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On Thu, 26 Oct 2017 14:47:34 -0700 (PDT), in < trader_4 wrote:

Look at this before you continue to make an utter fool of yourself. <http://www.ourelkhorn.itgo.com/jeep/tirechng.htm
Here's a guy doing the job in pajamas on a makeshift pallet: <

I have done *plenty* of tires before I decided to drill the holes to sink the female inserts to bolt the tire mounter down, and you do *not* have to bolt the mounter into the garage floor. Period.
You can stake it into the ground. You can screw it into a board. You can screw it into a pallet. etc.
How long would it take *you* to screw the tire mounting tool into a pallet? Took me about five minutes.
I realize that's too difficult a task for you, but *everything* you have written has been so *dead wrong* as to be ridiculous.
All you do is make a fool of yourself. It's like you don't like cleaning toilet bowls, so you try to tell us that your shit doesn't stink.
All your arguments only work on fools. I'm done with the bunch of you.
You're all utter fools (except maybe one or two of you who can *think*).
Not one statement from you in this entire thread was correct. Not one. Be real. It's OK if you don't like the job. But you should stop lying to yourself.
Tell *yourself* the truth, for once. There's no need to bolt it into the driveway or sidewalk or garage floor.
Here are references, but you won't believe facts so it doesn't matter. <http://i1os.com/tire_changer/b9RmKQOZEoE.video <
<http://gardentractortalk.com/forums/topic/40387-harbor-freight-tire-changer/ <http://rmpmotosports.com/wordpress/?page_id 60> <http://www.dcsportbikes.net/forum/f19/my-harbor-freight-tire-changer-mods-79717/ <

I'm totally out of here becuase all you guys *can* do is troll nonsense that is so easily proven wrong that it's a waste of time to even *respond* to your utter lies about how *you* don't want to do a job that is so simple, it's perhaps the most basic of all car repairs.
--
Note: The motororcyle changer is just an extension to the car tire changer.

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