Well Blake, I've likely fixed as many tires as pretty well anyone else on this list (24 years in "the business") - but I don't have room for a tire machine at home, and at my age I'm not relishing dismouting and rmounting tires on alloy rims with a set of spoons. I know I can do it - I've done it before when necessary and would still do it if I HAD to - but generally I don't HAVE to any more - so I don't. I DID break the bead on my wife's Taurus wheel to clean up a bead leak on the weekend by using a scissors jack under the frame of the truck - but when I got a small puncture in my Nokian snow tire on the truck, I just dropped it off at my local Nokian dealer and took advantage of the free repair feature of their road hazard warrantee. Dropped it off on the way to the office and picked it up at lunch. I have access to a tire changer - about a 20 minute drive away - and that's where the plugs I source end up - for use by my friend who owns the farm. - and where I can do repairs if I NEED to on a weekend or holiday.
Usually it's just more convenient to have someone else do it and pay the price.
I've had 2 flats on the road in 49 years - one of them in the Black hills of North Dakota at about -40 - (as well as 3 tire valves failing within a few days while on holliday)and have had a few go flat in the drivewy -or develop "slow leaks" - none of which were an "emergency". The one in North Dakota was on a tire that really should not have been fixed - it was pretty well worn - but it got me to Banff Alberta and back home to Ontario after having it repaired (JUST made it to a shop that could fix it before it got too low to drive on --- was looking for air to get me to the next city and I found the manager of the local Co-Op pulling into his driveway in his pickup truck at
7pm on Sunday night and he insisted on opening the shop and fixing the tire for me. Good western hospitality.)
I think it's interesting that we *all* have had the *same* experience with the outside plugs, in that they all lasted the life of the tire.
I never said that's the reason for removing the tire to patchplug.
My main reason is that once you've done a patchplug, you just *feel* better about the job. Especially if it's for your daughter or your wife or your neighbor.
You don't feel like you did the job right when you only do an external repair, because you can't technically do it right without at the very least looking at the inside of the carcass to see if it's damaged.
It's sort of like the difference between a real oak desk, and an plywood desk with just an oak veneer on the outside.
You bring up a great point in that I always feel bad that I have to *widen* a hole just to put in a patchplug.
The patchplugs have a steel insert so they can go into pretty small holes, but the process uses a reaming tool that makes the belt edges smoother than they would be if you didn't use the reaming tool.
Like you, it always seems a little counter productive if you're trying to fix a hole, that you first have to make it bigger.
But what you're really trying to do is smooth out the belts and to make the hole more uniformly the "right size" for the patch plug.
I do agree though that it's sort of like cutting someone open just to remove a splinter in that you have to *harm* the tire before you can fix it.
I like *that* 20-patchplug kit because it comes with the hard-to-find black inside goop that you paint over the inside of the repair!
It also comes with the softener that you use before buffing, which is chemically matched to everything else by being all of the same brand.
I don't use the softener because I don't see how it does anything but make it a *lot* less work for scraping away the surface layer (which is critical for a tire shop where time is money).
But I would use the black inside goop to seal everything up nicely!
This is correct. You seem to be the only other person here who has done the job.
Hence you know that, in a lot of cases, the only approved thing to do is throw away the tire once you've looked at the *inside* of the carcass.
Since you have *experience* that all the others don't have, I would *love* to know the answer to one question which bugs me because I don't know the answer.
About what *percentage* of tires are technically not repairable when people bring flats in to the shop?
I'm curious because I just advised someone from across the country to go to a *free* tire shop, but I warned them that the free tire repair is done so that they can make money selling people tires after they *fail* the tire.
She asked me 'what's the chance of that, to which I said I didn't have a clue since it depends on all these factors:
Is there any damage to the inside of the tire
Is the puncture too close to the edges of the belts
Is the puncture not of the best size and shape and angle
Is there another repair along the same diametric line
Is the tread worn down to any single wear bar
Is the rim out of round or gouged or otherwise unsafe etc.
Since you seem to be the only other person who has the experience, what would you say is the percentage of flats that come in to a typical shop that are not repairable technically (using RMA rules)?
You have been correct in all that you say in this post.
You didn't mention (but I'm sure you know it) that you can't do a proper repair without *inspecting* the inside of the tire.
There are so many tire shops, that in a day, I could likely collect, for free, a five-years' supply.
Truth be told, I'm embarrassed to get the freebies. I'd rather pay for them.
Nonetheless, the real answer to my question is that nobody knows any better than I do, since anyone can do a google search (and I already did that before I asked the question).
I can't find them locally for sale in small quantities. So the only way to buy them is on the net. Ebay, Amazon, and others sell them.
I was just asking whose is best. I suspect, like car batteries, they only have very few manufacturers so maybe it doesn't matter in the end.
But I would be just guessing at that. And I don't like guessing.
There are two kinds of tools, and most homeowners only own one kind.
The pro tools and the homeowner tools. The pro tools you used are *huge* compared to the homeowner tools.
As just one example, look at the *lift* at a typical garage. It must cost $10K right? How much does your floor jack in your garage cost? Maybe $150 right? A set of drive-up ramps costs, what? Another $50?
Look at the *size* of those the respective tools. The pro lift is about the length of the entire vehicle. The homeowner floor jack & ramps pack in the corner of the garage.
We're not talking about pro tools here. We're talking about homeowner tools here.
The homeowner tools to change, fix, and statically balance are no bigger, no costlier, no different than any other typical home tool.
Here's what you need (some of which most people already have).
A floor jack, chocks, stands, wrenches, & "spoons".
A compressor (which you have if you have air tools)
A bead breaker (which is smaller & lighter than a floor jack)
A mounter/unmounter (which is about the size of a light drill press)
A static balancer (which is about the size of a tub vacuum cleaner)
The argument that the tools for changing tires are bulkier than other tools you already have in your garage or shed or shop is just not true.
What you're saying is that you don't *want to*, since everyone *has to* change tires when they wear out and everyone *has to* fix a flat when they get one.
Since you *do* have to change tires, and since you *do* have to fix flats, then all you're saying is that you don't *want to*, which is fine.
I've seen *every* redneck way of breaking (and seating) the bead, and I've tried a few of them (like driving over on a flat board) and I'll tell you, a fifty-dollar bead breaker will change your life in a split second.
For fifty bucks, you can forget all the redneck solutions to bead breaking!
If all the tools ever did was fix flats, then I would agree with you that the tool would likely not be worth their storage costs. The tools themselves are practically free, so the cost of the tools is nothing (about $300 bucks for everything that you don't already have).
How much do your tools cost? Are *none* of them three hundred bucks?
I have a wood chipper, for example, that costs me $650 at Lowes. It's far bigger and bulkier than *any* tire-changing tool I own. My drill press is more costly and bulky than *any* of my tire-changing tools. My wet/dry vacuum cleaner is much bulkier than the balancer is. My floor jack is far heavier than the very light bead breaker is.
All I'm saying is that the homeowner tire changing tools are no bulkier, no more expensive, and no more troublesome to store (since all but the balancer I store outside) than *any* of your other tools are.
I understand as a lot of people tell me it's more convenient to hire a gardener to mow their lawn. They'd rather pay than mow.
That makes complete sense.
But those people who would rather pay than do will not likely offer the best advice on what a good lawn mower is, right?
In most cases, if you asked them for the best lawnmower parts, and if they've never fixed their lawnmower, then their guess would be worse than your guess, right?
Almost everyone, including you, has replaced a tire, I'm sure, using the manual method, whether that be a car tire or a motorcycle tire or a bicycle tire.
The arguments are the same for all of them.
The only way to know if the patch is safe is to patch it from the inside.
Even so, the tools do more than fix tires. The tools replace tires too.
There's nothing wrong with your words above, so my response is only related to the fact that an outside repair is something any professional will
*laugh* at because it's not a *safe* repair in the eyes of the tire professionals.
To you and me, I agree with you that *it works*. I won't disagree since I've done it many times myself. And I'm not dead yet.
But you have to admit that no tire professional will do the job from the
*outside*. You do know that, right? It's just wrong. And it feels wrong.
It works though. So I'm not saying that it doesn't work. But if my daughter needed a tire repair, I would not do it from the outside. For myself, I might.
But not my kid or wife or friend. For them, I'd do it right.
I can understand your argument that the equipment costs money while a proper and safe repair can be free if you go to the right place.
But you missed entirely the fact that the tools are used for *more* than just fixing flats. The tools are also used for changing worn out tires and for mounting different tires at different times of the year (if that's your shtick - but a lot of people just buy and store four additional rims).
The fact you missed that *obvious* point means (most likely) that you're not being honest with yourself, since you make the *same decision* about
*all* your tools.
It's the same argument you can make for owning a leaf blower or not. It's the same argument you can make for owning a chain saw or not. It's the same argument you can make for owning a floor jack or not.
The leaf blower blows more than just the leaves out of your patio. The chain saw cuts more than just one branch a year that falls down. The floor jack lifts more than just your Ford - it also lifts Chevys.
The fact that you entirely missed that the tools are really bought to change tires, where fixing flats is just gravy, means simply that you don't like changing tires at home (which is just fine).
But don't falsely say the tools cost too much because, like all tools, they cost a lot less by orders of magnitude than it costs to pay someone else to do the job for you.
Name one tool that you own that cost *more* to own and operate than it would cost to have someone else do the job, if it's a job that you do about
10 times a year for your entire life.
I agree if tires were, like LED light bulbs, essentially permanently installed, then you'd never need to change them out. But you *do* need to change tires out every few years on *each* car you own just as a chain saw is useful for *every* tree that you want to trim and a floor jack works on every car you want to lift and a leaf blower works in any situation you want to blow air.
You prove my point with every post that people who haven't done it are telling lies to themselves and to others.
Your *objections* to the tools are all incorrect. You're just guessing, and you're just guessing wrong.
The real reason you don't have the tools is that you don't want to do the job, which is ok. But just be true to yourself as to why and don't propagate incorrect assumptions about the size of your tools.
The bead breaker and balancer are both smaller than, lighter than, and as mobile as a good floor jack is. The mounting/unmounting tool is about the size of a small drill press.
The mounter/unmounter does have to be bolted down but you can use recessed female threads sunk into concrete inside or outside so that it can be removed if you don't have the space to just leave it outside all the time.
The real reason people don't have the tools isn't the cost or the size, but that they don't want to do the job, which is fine. But it's not that the tools are bulky because they're not any more bulky than any other tool you have in the shed.
You also need a compressor, by the way, but many people already have one for their air tools, and they're no more bulky than the balancer is anyway.
Every one of your statements is dead wrong, but you're welcome to your opinion, but then, so am I welcome to explain why you're dead wrong.
The "bulkiness" of the three tools is no more bulky than tools you
*already* have in the shop (see above explanation).
Mounting to the garage floor is not needed. My mounter is mounted outside, but it could have been mounted anywhere if I unbolt it after use (I use it so much that I keep it bolted in, but I could easily remove it any time).
Balancing is a piece of cake given that you *mark* the location on the rim beforehand and you put it back and check the static balance. You're only adding a patch, which weighs, what?
Well then, why did you get everything wrong? BTW, it's fine that you make everything up. And it's even fine that you get everything wrong as a result.
All I'm asking you is to be true to yourself. The real reason you're against the tools is that you don't want to do the job.
Just as some people don't want to clean out their closets, you don't want to mount tires.
That's fine. But don't make up the fact that closets are too bulky to clean out simply because you don't like to do the job.
Just be honest with yourself as to why you're throwing imaginary hurdles in the air as to why *you* don't want to own tools to do the job.
The question was really simple. It still is. Anyone can guess at an answer (I already did guess). I was *hoping* (beyond hope it seems) to find someone who didn't just guess.
I wanted to ask someone who had actually done the job where *they* get their patchplugs from, in small quantities.
If nobody has bought them and used them, then nobody can help me. It's really that simple.
You must know that *every* tire professional will laugh at that answer. You must know that it's *impossible* to do a *safe* job without looking at the *inside* of the tire.
If you don't know that, then I'm wasting my time talking to you because
*everyone* knows that and *nobody* could possibly logically refute me.
Sure, you can *guess* and *assume* the tire hasn't been damaged on the inside - but you're just guessing.
Worse. You guessed dead wrong on *every* count.
This rhetorical question shows that you can't help anyone with your attitude that only a *guess* from someone who has never once done the job correctly will be able to help me.
If someone has the experience, they will know the answer. If they don't have the experience, their guess is worse than mine is.
There are opinions all over the place about what the issue with just using a rope plug really is. The one that I think makes the most sense is people claim that the tire could be damaged on the inside by whatever punctured it and the only way to know for sure is to remove the tire and look. I can see that being a liability issue and tire repair shops want to make sure they protect themselves. It also depends on things that the shop doesn't know of has to rely on the customer for, eg was it driven with little air for a long distance, how far was it driven with something actually in it, if at all, etc. The repairs I've done with a rope plug were simple, small nails, that were still in the tire. If it was anything more than that, where I had reason to suspect the tire could be damaged, then I'd take it to a shop where it could be dismounted and checked. On the other hand, I've driven many thousands of miles on rope plugs, nothing happened. Nor do I know of any actual cases where anyone I know or read about had anything bad happen.
It's not even close to any of the above. I have all of the above. I use all of them an order of magnitude more often than I need to put new tires on my car. I get tires on average maybe once in
10 years. Some cars got one new set, then they were sold and I got a new car that had new tires.
And then you have the size of the equipment, it's weight. Are you saying that the space needed and the places you can store a leaf blower and tire dismounting eqpt is the same? The tire eqpt needs to be bolted to the garage floor. And finally, after all that, you still can't balance the tires you just mounted, so now where do you go? Sounds like a trip to the tire shop, where they have to take the tires off the car, doing much of the same work over again.
Not many people change tires or fixes flats anywhere near 10 times a year. I don't. I'm sure Ed doesn't either. I'm an order of magnitude below that level.
Why is is counter productive? You refine the edge so the plug sticks better and you also increase the surface area to adhere to. Stop and think for a moment and you see the benefits.
Most importantly you make the hole big enough for the plug to fit in. The ones I've plugged, it's been a nail or similar that was much smaller than the plug and tool.
Tire changing equipment is pretty much used for changing tires. That is job done very two to three years. Sure, I could ve a few bucks going to Tire Rack instead of my local dealer, but the money for equipment is better serving me in the stock market between tire changes.
True, I have no desire to change tires but would do so if it saved me a LOT of money. It doesn't. What other functions does the equipment do? Blow leaves? Cut branches?
Show me the numbers. On average, I change tires every 30 months, fix a flat once every five years.
I don't change tires ten time a year. Maybe 1/30th that. I do happily own a lot of tools I use ten times a year.
Again, show me the numbers. One of us is wrong and you can easily prove it. Four tires every 30 months. What is the payback? Mounting and balance is about $15 per tire. That is $240 every 10 years.
Harbor Freight manual changer aside, the payback is about 20 years for used equipment.
And don't forget the "manual" part. As I said before, I changed tires at a gas station when I was a kid. We had an air powered changer to break the bead. It took considerable force. I never tried using one that was not power assisted, but I'd suspect there are issues. We also had other things that make fixing a leak easier, eg a trough with water big enough to put a tire in to find the leak, devices to get tubeless tires to seal to the rim if they would not easily seat themselves, etc.
It's fine if you want to do it at home, but it's not worth it to me for all those reasons and the few times I need to do it. It's not at all like a leaf blower that I use frequently, can store almost anywhere, takes little space and doesn't need to be bolted to the floor.
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