What screws to rehang a door, going to store soon.

[micky]

Details later, but first: I) If you had a wood front door door that had been kicked in, so that the top two of the 3 hinges were totally separated from the door, and most of the 8 screws were either still sitting in the hinge or on the floor, would you:

a) buy longer screws for next time (this time), and b) drill a small diameter hole further into the original hole to help the longer screws along.

c) use the original screws** and buy more like them to replace the 3 I can't find, and d) try to make the hole smaller buy stuffing a wood kitchen match in each hole. or e) look harder in my kitchen or go buy round toothpicks to make the hole smaller. Toothpicks are made from harder wood than kitchen matches?

**The original screws are only an inch long, and the diameter is such that the head fits exactly the countersink in the hinge. Is there a good reason they are so short?

I tried the kitchen match thing. Most of one match will go in a hole, but after that, there didn't seem to be room for a second one. The three screws I've put back in (out of 8) seem to have tightened up pretty much, but will they start coming out when I use the door for years to come?

II) What is good and strong for gluing wood? Elmers white glue is good and I have some, but I see ads for hide glue and other specialty wood glues. Worth the extra effort to find and buy some?? Need it today or tomorrow.

[Ed Pawlowski]

Match stick, longer screw, no drilling.

I'd be using a battery drill to put them in so they should go easy enough with no drilling.

[Marilyn Manson]

Sorry to hear of your misfortune.

Use longer screws. It is often recommended to replace at least one of the original screws with a longer one upon initial installation. I would do them all since the existing holes are most certainly damaged.

You should replace the screws not just on the door side, but also on the jamb side. The jamb side screws should be long enough to each through jamb and well into the rough opening wood.

Kicking open a door screwed only to the jamb is a piece of cake.

Keeps the price down and works in ~100% of situations. You must buy screws with the same size head for both strength and proper operation. Typically these are #9, but take a hinge with you.

I wouldn't trust them. Specifically, I wouldn't trust the holes. The screws weren't gently screwed out, so there's no way that there is as much wood left for the threads to bite into.

Get longer screws, 2.5 to 3". Buy quality screws. Cheap screws will cam out before you drive them all the way in. Predrilling depends on the material. Harder woods will require pre-drilling. The bit size should be no bigger than the solid shank of the screw.

Titiebond is the #1 glue used by woodworkers. Hide glue has it's uses (specifically reversibility) but is not needed in this case. Elmer's white glue is definitely not recommended for gluing wood.

From:

"Titebond (and the other aliphatic resin glues which are sold under a variety of names) pretty much heads the list of modern favorites. It works every time. The somewhat less convenient hide glue (made from animal hides and hooves) is still used by purists, craftsmen, and traditionalists. It works every time as well. Elmer’s White glue, that staple of school projects, is a polyvinyl glue which never gets really hard; hence most woodworkers don’t use it on serious projects.

But which Titebond? In this case and probably most for occasional woodwork, the Original is fine. For those of us that do a considerable amount of woodworking, Titebond II and III are better choices. I use Titebond III for the reasons explained here, especially the open time:

All three types will be available at any home center.

The real question is this: Is glue even needed? If you are going to use longer screws, there may be no need to repair the existing holes. Me, I'm anal, so I would use toothpicks and TB III, but it's probably overkill. Of course, I have the supplies, so why not? Now, if the door or jamb itself is damaged (split) then some glue and clamps would be recommended.

[Marilyn Manson]

Polyvinyl glues, such as Elmer's white glue, are not going to provide any structural support since they never completely harden. In a case like this, where longer screws should be used, Elmer's white glue would be a waste of time and effort. If glue is going to be used, it should be a aliphatic resin glue, specifically formulated for wood.

Elmer's does make a wood glue and it's cheaper than Titebond (which is preferred by serious woodworkers) so if Elmer's is going to be used, it should at least be their wood glue.

[micky]

Turns out they are only 7/8".

I'm certain it's not.

Darn. Probably too late now. Or maybe I'll just squirt some glue in the holes.

I've heard two slightly different stories about what happpened. When and if I pin it down, I'll post back.

Nothing was stolen.

Yes, I put those in the first time someone kicked in the door, in 1983. They're still in good shape, the door around the metal reinforcement plates are in good shape, but the jamb is destroyed, including splitting the 2x4 of the frame, ripping out a section of sheetrock, taking the alarm control panel out of its bracket (hanging from its wire, but apparently not damaged), and breaking off 1/4 of the wall plate for the double light switch.

Nothing was stolen the first time either, but then I'm certain theft was the goal. I think the dog next door, which used to bark so much he kept me from going to sleep at night and woke me up every morning (less than

8 hours later) scared away the burglar. Hard to be angry at him for barking when I'm sleepoing.

[micky]

Well, Iwent to the store. I coulnd't remember the name Titebond until I got there. I have some of that somewhere, but it may have dried out, or at least gotten too viscous to come out of the bottle. I'll look some more for it, but I bought Gorilla Wood Glue. Titebond II and III were right next to it, but a) I might have that already, b) Because Gorilla Tape is so good, I had this feeling that Gorilla Glue would be too. This is in direct violation of one of my minor guiding principles, that having one good product doesn't mean the rest is very good. This was formulated when Shaklee, Amway, and some other sellers were big and they tried to get people to pester their friends to buy from them.

I centered on Shaklee, because a friend was going to sell it. It's certianly possible that someone invented a good soap or whatever, that is better than all the competition, like the first time they put enzymes in laundry soap. So the starting product might be great, but that's no reason to think the other things they sell are better than average, or that other brands are not better. But here I was buying Gorilla Glue almost just because I like Gorilla Tape.

The glue is not for the hinge screws but for the 2x4 jamb. It's possible gluing and nailing won't seem wise and I'll cut out more of the 2x4 and replace all that would then be missing. But at the moment gluing and nailing (in place of clamping) seems easier and just as good.

[Marilyn Manson]

You have a 2 x 4 jamb? That's pretty darn unusual. 2 x 4 framing, such as the king stud and/or trimmer, sure. Not sure I've ever seen a 2 x 4 jamb except maybe in a cabin or not-so-fancy cottage. I think you may be confused with your terminology.

What are you planning on cutting out and replacing?

[micky]

Good suggestion. I have a corded drill that should be able to do the same thing. Nope, I have 4 drills but could only filnd the biggest one. it went to fast.

What do you use for screwing in screws? I'm thinking of living large this month!

[Marilyn Manson]

Then I bought a second drill. It's good to have at least 2 drills for some projects. Use one to pre-drill, the other to screw. Change tools, not bits.

Yes, I know about interchangeable bits. Still, sometimes 2 drills work even better. I was working on some deck repairs this weekend. Used both drills and the impact driver throughout the day, different bits in each.

I have 4 batteries and 2 chargers, so I'm always up and running.

[Marilyn Manson]

Just FYI...predrilling isn't just to make the screws go in easier. It's often done to prevent splitting the wood.

If all you want to do is make it easier, rub the threads on a bar of soap. Especially useful if screwing in long screws by hand, but also useful when using power driver.

[Ed Pawlowski]

I have something similar to this. $12.

[TimR]

I would go a different direction here.

I'm assuming it is actually a solid wood door like mine rather than a hollow core. Hollow cores should not be used on a front door anyway, and you don't need 3 hinges to hang a hollow core, 2 are plenty. Of course I could be totally wrong. And certainly the jamb is solid wood, probably behind the facing there is a 2x4 shimmed next to another 2x4.

Then, 1 inch screws are nowhere near long enough. You want #8 or #10, either 2 inch or 2.5 inch. I would go #10 if the door is full thickness. Is there a #9? Not where I buy screws. I would probably do 2 inch on the door and 2.5 on the jamb.

Finally, do NOT screw around, sorry mess around, with half baked ideas like match sticks. The right way to fix this is buy a 3/8 inch dowel, drill a 3/8 inch hole 2 or 2.5 inches deep, and glue the dowel in with Titebond or epoxy. I used epoxy last time but that's because I had some handy and i didn't have Titebond. Either will work. Once the dowel has filled the hole and the glue has hardened, you predrill the dowel for your new screws, attach the hinges, and you're good to go.

In several houses I've had to use the dowel method to fix what the last lazy DIYer left me, and it is guaranteed. You MIGHT not need it on the jamb, you do need it on the door.

[Jim Joyce]

#9 screws are common in my area, just as a single data point. HD, Lowes, Ace, and even Walmart has them.

I wondered why no one had suggested that right from the start. I've used that method on more than one occasion and it always works. I've used toothpicks on small cabinet doors but on a heavy exterior door I'd use the dowel method.

[Marilyn Manson]

I was going to suggest dowels but I'm not sure that they are needed in this situation.

The original holes are less than 7/8" deep. If he is going to use 2 to 2 1/2" screws, the original damaged hole is not going to be a factor. Most 2 or 2.5" #9 (or whatever) screws are not even going to have threads that close to the head. I just checked my 2 1/2" #9's and there is a full inch of unthreaded shank.

If the 7/8" screws were all that were ever used, then the entire threaded portion of the new screws are going to be in solid wood. IMO, using dowels in this situation would be similar to using dowels in a brand new installation.

Assuming the hinge is mortised in and can't move, and the longer screws bite into solid wood, that little hole behind the hinge isn't even a factor.

Granted, if the damage is more extensive than indicated, then dowels or even an insert/patch might be required. It sounds like the framing 2 x 4 is what gave way and that is where he should be concentrating his efforts. Long screws into the door stile should be more than enough.

[Big Al]

A bit late to the post but...

I usually drill the screw hole with something like a 3/8" drill. Then glue and hammer in a 3/8" dowel. This basically puts you back to square one on the wood with no screw hole. Now you can redrill (once cured) a new hole for screws. I also like the idea of a longer screw, same #9 or whatever size, just longer than 1". Al

[Scott Lurndal]

The problem with using a dowel is that you end up screwing into end-grain, which is not optimal. Better to use a plug cutter to cut a face-grain plug and use that instead of a dowel.

[TimR]

IMO, the plug cutter is clearly superior. Not only do you get the grain right but you can match the hardness of the wood. Some dowels are very hard.

That said, I don't have a plug cutter and dowels have worked very well for me so far.

[hubops]

I agree with the end-grain issues from using a dowel. Plus - even if a plug is used - the turning pressure of tightening the screw can break the glue-job and leave you with a bigger bunged-up hole to deal with. .. been there done that - not on an entrance door but on a cupboard door hinge. John T.

[Jim Joyce]

Those issues are largely theoretical, rather than actual. Remember that your new screw should extend through the dowel, not just into it. Use a proper length screw.

If a proper wood glue is used, that would be nearly impossible since the glue joint would have more strength than the surrounding wood. It's a long grain to long grain joint, the strongest possible. Proper wood glues have more holding power than lignin, the substance that binds wood fibers to one another in nature. You may have noticed that, when you glue two boards along their long grain edges and allow the glue to dry, when you break that glue joint it's not the glue that breaks. Instead, the wood breaks.

[Jim Joyce]

Depending on what tools you have available, it's easy to make your own dowels of nearly any common size, out of whatever wood you have on hand. I use round over bits on a table-mounted router, but a lathe would be even more flexible, although precision could suffer.