Using the Circuit Breaker as an On-Off Switch

WARNING NOTICE DANGER

FEDERAL PACIFIC ELECTRIC BREAKERS CAN FAIL TO OPERATE AFTER A SINGLE MANUAL SWITCHING CYCLE OR A SINGLE AUTOMATIC TRIPPING OPERATION. They are not to be trusted to do the job for which they were originally installed and they must never be used as switches. The two pole breakers are especially vulnerable to this sort of failure.

-- Tom H

Reply to
Takoma Park Volunteer Fire Dep
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You can save a LOT of money by turning it off...and only turning it on an hour or so before you actually need it. Most families don't need hot water during the day. When I was single, I would turn the tank on in the morning...then have coffee and breakfast while the water got hot. I'd turn it off when I left for work.

Many, many retail and commercial businesses shut off breakers at the end of the day.

Do some investigative work on your own...at some of the breaker company web sites...and check out their specs. Most breakers are rated for thousands upon thousands of cycles.

Have a nice one...

Trent

Budweiser: Helping ugly people have sex since 1876!

Reply to
Trent©

On Thu, 28 Oct 2004 15:31:45 -0600 "xrongor" used 28 lines of text to write in newsgroup: alt.home.repair

Randy,

Could you explain the "basic physics" principals used to calculate your observation? I would think you need specific information about the size and thermal resistance of the water heater, and it's heater coil power consumption to make a statement like that. You would also need to know the ambient temperature in the apartment, and the temperature of the incoming cold water. It would also help to know where the thermostat is set.

-Graham

Remove the 'snails' from my email

Reply to
G. Morgan

No...the question can only be answered by reality...after the fact.

All specs are theoretical.

Have a nice one...

Trent

Budweiser: Helping ugly people have sex since 1876!

Reply to
Trent©

Yikes. Much ado about next to nothing.

People do this stuff every day, I skimmed one post on here where a guy told of using the breakers every single day of the year to turn the store lights on and off. I would hazard a guess that this happens a few hundred thousand times a day in our world.

Is it "code", is it "right", is it "safe"??? Is it reality? Probably not, don't judge, for all but total morons, you bet.

Results of repeated applications: breaker wears out, won't hold one position or the other. Solution: $4.00 and 10 minutes for installing a new breaker.

Results of REALLY repeated applications: you wear out the stub on the bus bar, the breaker won't stay in it's slot. Solution: $5 for a new breaker and a snap-in hole filler, move breaker to a new position.

What the fugg is all of the fuss about???

Reply to
I-zheet M'drurz

No, you don't need to know any of that. Turning the heater off will always save energy as long as the heating element only has one setting and the water in the heater is free to circulate normally. You can create artificial conditions where the heat must diffuse slowly and the like, but with a real heater turning the power off will always save energy.

Reply to
toller

If you really don't use a lot of hot water the biggest saving is by taking the wire off the bottom element. The heater will heat the top foot of water and quit. My mom's house ran like this for 30 years and it was only when she had the grandkids over that the hot water got skimpy.

Reply to
Greg

BTW the real answer to the original question is in the U/L white book. Breakers that are rated for switching duty are marked "SWD". Otherwse you are in an "untested" area. If it is a name brand breaker of recent manufacture (read:"hanging on the wall at the hardware store") I bet you are fine. If this is some "collector model" breaker with no markings I wouldn't screw with it too much. You might be looking for something that is going for $100 on Ebay ... when you can find one.

Reply to
Greg

I believe OP said it was a Federal Pacific, so you can't really trust the UL listings. FPE was known to forge UL marks, and even if the breaker is OK for switch duty, it will be expensive and hard to find a replacement. (And the other breakers in the box may fall out when you open the cover -- I've had that happen.)

If it was a modern panel (Siemens, GE Powermark, Square D, etc.) I would have no problem with using an SWD or FLD breaker as a switch.

Bob

Reply to
zxcvbob

Sorry, I missed that. FPEs in working condition are certainly in the "collecter item" class. Maybe exercising them makes them work better but they do come with a bad rep.

Reply to
Greg

not a chance, it's cheaper to turn it off & back on rahter than leaving it on all day.

If it used more energy why would utilities give rebates for setback thermostats????

Reply to
Bob K 207

why?

assuming the water will not reach room temperature in the time the heater is off (in which case you would clearly save money) from a power/energy standpoint whats the difference between operating it in a mode where it turns on and off with in 1 degree of its setting, or 5 degrees, or allowing it to cool down 20 degrees before it turns on? whatever you saved by not turning it on earlier, has to be paid again on the way back up. the way i see it the difference is that the lower you let it drop before turning back on, the more thermal inertia to overcome hence it will be more costly to operate it by letting it cool down 20 degrees than it would be to just keep it at the higher temperature.

you dont agree i take it... the only way i can see it would be cheaper is if there is some energy lost in the act of cycling the thermostat from on to off, or in initially 'charging' the coils or something like that. in which case fewer cycles would be cheaper...

randy

Reply to
xrongor

Randy-

Chill out, you're wrong, you made a mistake.

Remember the first rule of holes.......stop digging.

basic physics says you're wrong.

I'll do the complete analysis but not for free.

Hopefully you're not a licensed engineer, otherwise I'll have to notify the PE board.

If turning the water heater off uses more energy why do utilities give rebates for setback thermostats????

admit your mistake, its good for the psyche :)

you'll be happier & live longer

Reply to
Bob K 207

Fire is not a 'nothing'. Some breakers are constructed to also turn off power. Therefore they are rated for that task. Another classic example of why someone must know the underlying theory - the principles - in this case the electrical code - long before jumping to conclusions that all breakers can be switched repeatedly.

Have we not had enough murders because the decision maker did not even understand basic decision making concepts? Its called the Challenger - where decisions were made by those who say, "It worked last time so it will always work". We should have been putting them (ditto for Columbia) on trial.

Principles could not be demonstrated more obviously. "I run every stop sign and have not yet killed anyone. That proves we can all run stop signs." Exactly the type of decision making that murders people. Some foolishly call them accidents. Exactly the same type of decision makers who should be charged with involuntary manslaughter.

Just because one does something daily and the building does not burn down does not even begin to prove anything. Provided by responsible posters in this thread are facts. Some breakers are rated to operate as power switches. Others are not.

As for those FPE breakers: http://www.> Yikes. Much ado about next to nothing.

Reply to
w_tom

i have yet to see any proof i am wrong. i will willingly admit it if proven wrong.

as for the rebates, one could argue that they make more with the timers so they kick you back a little and call it a rebate... hehe

randy

Reply to
xrongor

However you look at it, the savings on a day by day basis would be near nothing. Too small to be concerned with. If your friend is like me, he'll forget to turn it on, and end up with a cold shower.

When I lived in an apartment I would turn the breaker off when I would leave town for a few days. Once the water heater cooled to outdoor temperature, it couldn't consume any more when heating back up than if I left it on, right? So there was cost savings.

Now that I have my own house, I have my water heater on a timer. I'm on the electric company's "time of use plan" so I have the water heater set to turn off half an hour before the peak time, and turn on half an hour after peak time.

Let's pretend the water heater must turn on for 5 minutes total during the 7 hour peak time. That would be 5 minutes of energy costs at the peak rate. But if the water heater is off, it cannot use this energy.

Once the timer clicked on, it would run for the same (or close) 5 minutes, but at the cheaper rate.

Now consider this, after the timer is off, there is still more than enough hot water in the tank to take a shower or do a load of laundry. (For me, that is.) So in essence, the hot shower consumes NO electricity during peak times. Once the time kicks on again during the off peak times, THEN is when the shower costs money. So I am "delaying" the costs. :-)

--Mike

Reply to
Mike Fritz

Mine is an intermatic water heater timer. The timer motor runs on the full 240 volts, no neutral needed.

--Mike

Reply to
Mike Fritz

To shift some of the energy demand out of "peak" hours and manage their load?

Best regards, Bob

Reply to
zxcvbob

I hate it when that happens.

Bob

Reply to
zxcvbob

Reply to
Joe Fabeitz

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