Home built in 2005. These are interconnected Fireex smoke detectors (I believe because they have a yellow wire connected to the red wire). All the breakers are marked, but I don't see one for the smoke alarms.
Now I was away on business and my wife had an alarm chirping and couldn't get it to stop so she literally in wired it while it was hot! Could have killed herself.
Problem is I want to rewire it and I don't know how to cut the power to it since there is no breaker.
There HAS to be a breaker. It will likely be shared with another
circuit - in USA the code required the smoke detectors to be on AFCI
breakers, I believe.they are GENERALLY connected to a bedroom circuit
- which also requires AFCI protection.. This is NOT a code requirement
but is acceptable best practice..
On Saturday, March 25, 2017 at 4:04:07 PM UTC-4, firstname.lastname@example.org wrote:
Agree. And it obviously can't be hard to figure out which breaker
- in USA the code required the smoke detectors to be on AFCI
I don't believe that is correct, either then or now. AFCIs were
required for circuits in bedrooms, what year that went into effect,
IDK. But smoke detectors are not necessarily required to be in the
actual bedroom. Here I believe having them close to the bedroom
is sufficient. If the smoke detector is in a hallway right outside
a bedroom in an area not required to be AFCI protected, then I don't
think it has to be.
I believe.they are GENERALLY connected to a bedroom circuit
I don't see why connecting smoke detectors to a bedroom circuit is
The smoke detectors are most likely connected to a breaker that won't normally be turned off by a homeowner. Typically it is wired to the furnace circuit. Open up the panel, it should be the only breaker with 2 hot wires connected to the breaker.
Note: items like furnaces have service switches at the unit to prevent anyone from powering up the device without the service personnel knowing about it. This is true for remote AC units as well.
On Saturday, March 25, 2017 at 4:28:50 PM UTC-4, email@example.com wrote:
Maybe, assuming the breaker is rated for double tapping. I've seen quite
a few homes here in NJ with hardwired smoke detectors both old and new
construction, none had double tapped breakers on anything.
On Sat, 25 Mar 2017 13:23:20 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
For the last few cycles AFCIs have been everywhere. Even in 02 when
they first showed up in bedrooms the smokes had to be on the AFCI.
I bet the smokes are on a breaker with one of the bedroom ceiling
On Saturday, March 25, 2017 at 8:55:53 PM UTC-4, firstname.lastname@example.org wrote:
Please cite for us the code section that requires AFCI to be on an AFCI. For starters, it makes no sense. As I said, it's my
understanding that the requirement for AFCI is tied to where
the outlet is, not to what's on it. Today because AFCI is
required in the living spaces, if the smoke detector is in a
hallway, it would need to be on an AFCI. But the poster's
home was built in 2005 when AFCI was only required in BEDROOMS.
If his smoke detector is in a hallway, AFAIK, there was no
requirement that it be on an AFCI. His house could be prefectly
code compliant with the NEC code when built and if so, it's still
code compliant today. If you have a cite for the code
section that says that smoke
detectors here in the USA must have been on an aFCI in 2005
or even today, I'd like to see it.
On Sun, 26 Mar 2017 07:40:48 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
I assume you mean "that requires smoke detectors to be on an AFCI"
210.12 Arc-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection. Arc fault
circuit-interrupter protection shall be provided as required
in 210.12(A) (B), and (e). The arc-fault circuit interrupter
shall be installed in a readily accessible location.
(A) Dwelling Units. All 120-volt, single-phase, 15- and
20-ampere branch circuits supplying outlets or devices installed
in dwelling unit kitchens, family rooms, dining
rooms, living rooms, parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms,
sunrooms, recreation rooms, closets, hallways, laundry areas,
or similar rooms or areas shall be protected by any of
the means described in 21 0.I2(A)(l) through (6)...
... and goes on to list all of the acceptable types of AFCI
That is pretty unambiguous.
Bear in mind an "outlet" is "A point on the wiring system at which
current is taken to supply utilization equipment" (Article 100)
On Sunday, March 26, 2017 at 11:03:02 AM UTC-4, email@example.com wrote:
Which again is exactly what I said. That the code doesn't
specifically say that smoke detectors must be on an AFCI,
only that the outlets in certain locations must be and
that it's when a smoke detector is in one of those areas
that it becomes covered, just like a receptacle would.
What you cite is current code, which again, I said results
in smoke detectors being on AFCI by virtue of where they
are located because now bedrooms and hallways are required
to have AFCI.
BUT, the poster's home was built in 2005. And I believe
back then, AFCI was not required in hallways, only in
bedrooms. So, I believe his home could have smoke
detectors in hallways outside a bedroom on a non-AFCI
circuit and it could have been code compliant then and
it's still grandfathered today.
On Sunday, March 26, 2017 at 11:04:28 AM UTC-4, firstname.lastname@example.org wrote:
But depending on where he's located, there may not have
been a requirement that the SMOKE DETECTOR also be in the
bedroom. If the smoke detector was in the hallway outside
the bedroom, which was and still is permitted in many
locations, then AFCI was not required in 2005. And if
it was not required in 2005, then there is no need to
update it now. Do you agree?
On Sunday, March 26, 2017 at 11:44:49 AM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:
On the other hand, if they're all interconnected and on the same breaker, a
nd even one is in a bedroom, then the AFCI is probably required.
I'm not sure that's a good idea, really. If you have an arc somewhere and
it trips the breaker, hope it kills the circuit before starting a fire. An
d there's no other source of ignition (smoking, unattended cooking, etc.) t
hat burns the house down while the smoke detectors are inactive.
On Monday, March 27, 2017 at 9:38:24 AM UTC-4, email@example.com wrote:
, and even one is in a bedroom, then the AFCI is probably required.
nd it trips the breaker, hope it kills the circuit before starting a fire.
And there's no other source of ignition (smoking, unattended cooking, etc.
) that burns the house down while the smoke detectors are inactive.
I think you'll find whether a hardwired smoke detector needs to have
battery backup or not varies from state to state. IMO, it's overkill
and a nuisance. A friend here has a new home and it has about
10 of them that start beeping for a new battery within a year.
Why that is, IDK. You would think the battery is only there for
backup and hence would last close to the shelf life, but they don't.
Every fire death I can recall in the news, it was not the result of AC
power being lost to alarms that were working. The typical scenario is
no smoke alarms, smoke alarms removed, smoke alarm broken, smoke alarm
with a dead battery, etc. My house has AC only alarms and that's what
On Mon, 27 Mar 2017 08:18:26 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
The problem is if you have a permit for anything related to a sleeping
space, you will be coming up to that code. You are actually dealing
with multiple codes too. You have the life safety portion of the
building code (NFPA 72/NFPA 101) and the electric code. These days
most states are using a model code like the ICC to write theirs
(driven by insurance companies) so things like smoke detector
placement and requirements tend to be the same across the country.
If your insurance company is not looking, older homes may not comply
to any of this but those people are becoming more intrusive,
particularly if you are changing companies.
No; in fact, they should *not* be in the bedroom unless there is an expected source of ignition
in the bedroom (e.g. an idiot who habitually smokes in bed).
Smoke detectors should always be *outside* the bedrooms: if a fire arises elsewhere in the
house, by the time a detector *inside* the bedroom alerts to the smoke, at best, precious time
has been lost -- and at worst, the sleepers are already dead of smoke inhalation.
On Mon, 27 Mar 2017 23:58:54 -0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
That is why they are supposed to be interconnected. If you are really
doing this right, the smoke going off anywhere will set off all of the
Prior to the interconnection rule, the smoke was required to be in the
hall outside the sleeping rooms ... and it still is.
Now you need a smoke in each sleeping room, one outside the sleeping
rooms and at least one on every other floor.
This will be triggered if a permit is pulled for any other renovation
and the only exceptions are if you can't do it any other way but
opening up drywall you were not going to be in anyway.
This is defined in ICC building code R.314 which is derived from NFPA
72. These codes tend to be adopted by states as their own.
On Monday, March 27, 2017 at 8:30:32 PM UTC-4, firstname.lastname@example.org wrote:
That's what they do with new construction here. Which solves the
problem Doug is talking about, ie whether one inside the bedroom
or one just outside, may miss early detection. Given how many fires
start from smoking in bed, requiring one inside the bedroom seems like
a very good idea to me. And like you say, the interconnection is a
big plus, a fire starting in the basement you'd get alerted long before
smoke reaches a second floor bedroom.
Still, from casual observation of the news, it seems that probably 95%+
of the protection comes from just having a working, unconnected alarm
near or inside a bedroom. All the fatal fires I can recall reading
about, there were either no smoke detectors, broken ones, disconnected
ones, dead batteries, etc. But getting an early warning from interconnected
alarms, multiple alarms, etc can also lessen the fire damage or avoid
an actual fire, by getting to whatever is going on before it's too late.
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