Update to: What could have done this to my vinyl siding?

[Meat Plow]

No have you?

[Doug Miller]

"Virtually no chance" is completely incorrect. Vinyl siding is *not* air-tight by any means. Solvent wiped or sprayed on the outside would very rapidly lead to solvent vapors on the inside.

[Doug Miller]

My prediction of what you will find: absolutely nothing wrong.

I still think the cause is what I said the first time: solvent exposure, either in the form of overspray from staining the deck, or whatever was used to clean up the overspray.

Before opening up the wall, at least look at the back side of the siding you removed. If the problem *was* a heat source inside the wall, then the damage on the back side should be at least as bad as the damage on the face. OTOH, if there is no (or only slight) discoloration visible on the back side, that would be the strongest possible indication that the source of the damage was on the outside of the house -- with solvent exposure being IMO the most likely culprit.

[Pete C.]

No, therefore I don't jump to conclusions like you do.

Claiming that the "plastic under the siding" i.e. the polyolefin Tyvek would be "exponentially more melted" had the heat come from inside the wall vs. the polyvinyl siding is rather like claiming that the silicone baking mat would melt before the cookies on it baked if the heat came from under it which obviously isn't true.

As for the OP's siding, tyvek, OSB and house, there is a fair amount of evidence pointing to the likelihood of a heat source from inside the wall and given the ease of removing and replacing a section of sheathing and the risk if the problem is as suspected, there is no point in looking up polyvinyl and polyolefin melt temps.

Bottom line - open the wall and see what the hell is going on.

Pete C.

[Pete C.]

Not in enough concentration to affect the tyvek. Solvent on the outside would almost entirely evaporate on the outside as well. Sure you'd get a detectable amount on the inside if you were sampling the air inside, but certainly not enough to do the damage seen on the tyvek.

Pete C.

[Pete C.]

Very dangerous advice. Heat coming through the sheathing could very easily build to the level required to soften and deform the vinyl siding without discoloring the back side. Open the sheathing and see what's behind. Heck, even cut a 2" hole with a hole saw to look through and inspect the removed plug.

Pete C.

[dpb]

I gotta' go w/ PeteC on this mostly...the OP said the solvent/deck was done in '06 and this damage didn't show up until within the last two weeks -- that's pretty long incubation time for a solvent to act.

Definitely OP should find out what's going on inside the wall if only to confirm conclusively it was all a surface damage on the outside...

If we're betting/guessing, I'm still on the side of somebody pushed the still hot grill over there sometime... :)

[Doug Miller]

Oh, come on. Let's hear your explanation of that: how "heat coming through the sheathing" to damage the siding will discolor the side *away* from the heat source without discoloring the side *nearer* the heat source. That's complete nonsense.

[Doug Miller]

Got any data behind that assumption, or are you just guessing? Even a light breeze could easily push solvent vapors through the gaps in vinyl siding -- that's why the Tyvek is there, because the stuff is so leaky.

How are you going to get a detectable amount on the inside if it almost entirely evaporates on the outside? If you can get a detectable amount on the inside -- after it's passed through the siding, the Tyvek, the sheathing, the insulation, the drywall, and a layer or two of paint -- how can you possibly think that there "certainly" wouldn't be enough to damage the Tyvek? Do you have any data behind that assumption, or are you just guessing again? Do you even know how much solvent, or what type of solvent, it takes to do that?

Look, I'm not saying that he absolutely shouldn't open up the wall -- just saying that he should look at the back side of the vinyl siding first, which he does not appear to have done. Somebody asked him a couple days ago what the back side of it looked like; as far as I can tell, he hasn't answered that question yet.

It's also been suggested to the OP that he perform a test on a scrap of siding, to see if the stain and the solvent he used will produce similar damage. He hasn't yet reported results of that test, either.

Both you and the OP have got the idea so firmly fixed in your heads that a heat source inside the wall is the only possible cause of this problem, that neither one of you is the least bit willing to entertain any alternative explanation.

[Pete C.]

The reason the Tyvek is there has nothing whatsoever to do with the siding being "leaky". The Tyvek it there to block air infiltration while allowing water vapor to pass preventing condensation buildup within the walls. Vinyl siding is specifically vented to prevent condensation buildup behind it, traditional wood siding or shingles are similarly ventilated due to their lap joints.

Inside as in behind the vinyl siding, not inside the house. The vinyl siding has vent slots at each lap location just as traditional wood siding effectively does. Of course you will get detectable amounts of a solvent behind the siding, but detectable and sufficient to affect the Tyvek are not even remotely synonymous.

I never said that solvent applied to the surface of the siding would ever make it past the Tyvek, OSB, etc., that is your moronic assumption and entirely false.

You're the only one making unfounded and dangerous assumptions. Suggest you stick your head back up your butt and stop endangering people by suggesting they ignore signs of a possible fire hazard in their wall.

And I've noted that looking at the back of the siding is not likely to show any discoloration since it was not exposed to direct flame, it was exposed to moderate heat, heat that will deform the vinyl siding well before it discolors it.

Suggest you go to your local building supply place and get a sample of vinyl siding and a piece of OSB. Place the siding on top of the OSB in your oven and start baking it at the lowest temp, say 150-170 degrees. When the siding starts to sag check the back for any discoloration.

The solvent use in question was many months ago, and the damage to the siding was obvious enough that it is very unlikely it went unnoticed all those months.

No, we have objectively analyzed the available information and concluded that an internal heat source is the most likely cause. The relative location of the damage vs. the electrical boxes, combined with the notable extra nail in that immediate area further support that conclusion. Giving the significant risk of the likely cause, that avenue needs to be investigated immediately.

Pete C.

[Pete C.]

You're quite the moron aren't you? You are the only one who has ever suggested that there would be discoloration on the vinyl siding. Vinyl siding will soften to the point of sagging from gravity well before it will discolor. The photos the OP posted clearly do not show any discoloration on the siding either.

Pete C.

[dpb]

...

I still think the _most_ likely is an external heat source...

Why OP hasn't opened the wall to confirm/deny the indication of an internal heat source is, I think, owing to being uncertain enough of the repair process that he thinks cutting into the sheathing is a much bigger deal than it really is.

Where, in fact, the bigger deal is the possibility that Pete is right -- I really don't think that will turn out to be the case as I think the amount of heat required to produce this external damage if it was arcing-generated would have shown up w/ some electrical anomalies although that certainly isn't absolutely required.

The solvent problem I think can be discounted as being too far removed in time and frankly the damage pattern just doesn't have the shape for that to have been the cause unless it were a misdirected spray gun blast and the reported application was rubbing w/ a rag instead...

Only when and if OP actually finishes an investigation and reports back will anything else possibly be learned...

--

[Doug Miller]

Isn't that what I just said?

How does that "vent" traditional wood siding?

Oh, yeah, sure, that must be what you meant. How were planning to get a sniffer between the vinyl siding and the sheathing?

Got any data behind that assumption? Or are you just guessing again?

You wrote "detectable amount inside". If you meant "behind the siding" you could have said so -- not my fault if you didn't write what you meant.

OK, so you *don't* have any data behind that assumption, and you *are* just guessing. Got it.

*What* signs?

Still waiting for your explanation of how your magic heat source discolors the vinyl siding on the surface *away* from the heat, but not on the surface

*toward* it...

That "test" obviously doesn't even come close to replicating the conditions you believe to exist. Here's a better one: place the siding on top of the OSB, outdoors, and then build a wood fire underneath the OSB. When the surface of the vinyl siding *away* from the heat source begins to discolor, examine the surface of the siding *toward* the heat source, *and* the OSB, for signs of damage. Go ahead -- try it. Then tell us what you find.

Yet you don't find it unlikely at all that a heat source inside the wall would discolor the surface of the vinyl siding *away* from the heat source, while leaving the surface *toward* the heat source undisturbed.

Doesn't say much for your ability to evaluate what's likely or unlikely.

ROTFLMAO!

Uh-huh. And it was this "objective" analysis that let you to conclude that the presumed heat source discolored the side of the vinyl siding *away* from the heat, the side exposed to free air, the side *guaranteed* to be the coolest, while leaving undisturbed the surface of the siding with the greatest exposure to heat.

The same "objective" analysis of the damage apparent on the successive layers, namely, severe damage to the siding (outermost), slight damage to the Tyvek (next inside), no damage evident on the OSB (innermost of the three visible), also led you to conclude that the damage was caused by a heat source INterior to the home. Right, a heat source INside the wall causes the greatest damage on the OUTside, and the closer you get to the heat source, the less damage is apparent.

Phooey. You *began* with the assumption of an internal heat source, and you're inventing explanations for it, in the absence of any clear evidence.

[Doug Miller]

Moron? Me? No, actually, Pete, I think that would be *you* here. The photos the OP posted VERY CLEARLY show substantial discoloration of the siding. Here's the link that was in the original post:

Now go look at that for the FIRST time, Pete, since it's blindingly obvious you've never seen it before. See the discoloration, MORON?

[Doug Miller]

Maybe so, but it's also possible that the OP's memory of what was done when is imperfect, and that the solvent use was actually much more recent; that's more likely IMO than an internal heat source that doesn't cause *any* apparent damage to the OSB, *or*, apparently, to the paint on the inside of the house.

No, he said he sprayed the stain:

"I did use something to remove some overspray at the time which was the spring of last year. I think it was Motsenbocker's Lift-Off." [from the OP's second post in the original thread]

True enough.

[Chris Lewis]

According to dpb :

While I'm by no means convinced of what the cause actually was, the solvent was rubbed off with a rag.

I could see a solvent dissolving into the siding, and not showing any physical effects until some time later when hit by high temperatures because the vinyl's melt point has effectively been reduced, and raises only slowly as the temperature forces outgassing.

Eg: applied in the fall, doesn't show any severe effects until full hot days in the summer, which have driven out the solvents and the plastic rehardened.

[Pete C.]

Quite possibly.

I don't think the hear was generated from arcing, I think that there is a very intermittent arc, perhaps only occurring once that started a fire in the wall cavity and the fire is what produced the heat before it self extinguished, probably due to good sealing of the wall cavity preventing it from getting enough air to really get established.

Also, having some familiarity with PVC I'm pretty confident that the siding would be dripping down the wall well before it could transfer enough heat to affect the Tyvek behind it.

Either way it's both unlikely that a quick spray of a solvent or a wipe with solvent on a rag to remove overspray would cause that kind of damage, much less have it appear suddenly many months later. PVC pipe and conduit is largely the same thing and it's primed and glued with solvents stronger than any you'd use to remove some stain overspray and it doesn't suddenly deform either.

Quite correct. Let's hope we hear back soon.

Pete C.

[dpb]

He "forgot" this within the last two weeks? :)

I personally couldn't tell there was no apparent damage or not to the OSB from the last pictures because all was shown was a fairly distant view of the sheathing through the hole in the Tyvek so there was no way to judge any coloration difference of that localized area vis a vis the removed area.

Other than the possibility of the postulated arcing being almost directly in contact w/ the inside wall of the sheathing, I agree it's difficult to imagine there being such visible exterior damage w/o there being any indication on the inner wall except for the fact that the location is below the cabinet top and therefore, there presumably is a back to the lower cabinets which is another layer of protection/insulation/coverup.

Overall, I'm still convinced from the picture it was external, it was a heat source and most likely somebody pushed the grill over there at some point; perhaps while OP was out of town or making a "honey-dew" run to the market for the forgotten items from the market or some such...

...

Yes, but he said he wiped the solvent on manually to clean up the overspray (and, no, I'm _not_ searching back through the thread to find it... :) )...

But, being usenet, it certainly can't/won't slow down conjucture, can/will it? :)

[Pete C.]

No, it isn't. The siding is supposed to be ventilated and can be used with or without the Tyvek. The Tyvek is there to improve sealing of the building envelope i.e. the joints between the sheets of OSB, regardless of the siding placed over it, not to overcome some deficiency in the siding.

There is no sealant in the laps of traditional wood siding, nor is it a very tight joint. This "leaky" overlap joint provides the same ventilation function that the cut slots in the vinyl siding provide, allowing water vapor migrating from inside the house to escape rather than condense behind the siding and cause rot, mold or other problems.

How about sticking the sampling hose through one of the vent slots in the vinyl siding?

Yep. You're the only one guessing and making dangerous suggestions.

Only a moron would take "inside" to mean inside the house, when the entire discussion has centered around the siding, Tyvek wrap and OSB sheathing.

Yes, I do have data. I've read the OP's posts and they have provided quite sufficient data to indicate that the solvent was applied many months ago and was thinner wiped on to remove overspray from staining the deck and has pretty much zero chance of being related to the OP's recently deformed siding.

• More damage to the Tyvek wrap than the siding.

• Extra nail visible in the sheathing in the suspect area.

• Four electrical boxes surrounding the suspect area.

I never made any such claim. You are the only one who ever suggested there would be discoloration on the siding.

Try applying Tyvek and vinyl siding onto the OSB and then torch the OSB from the back until the vinyl deforms. Again, you are the only one who has made any claims of discoloration on the vinyl siding.

Where is this magic discoloration on the surface of the vinyl siding you claim? The OP's photos do not show any discoloration on the vinyl siding.

Doesn't say much for your reading comprehension or visual acuity.

You probably are since you're too stupid to do anything intelligent.

Where is this discoloration you claim? The OP's photo

does not show any such discoloration. If you can't differentiate a shadow from discoloration, that's your problem.

Your analysis of the damage is seriously flawed. The damage to the Tyvek, namely shrinkage and melting to the point of holes forming, is significantly greater than the damage to the vinyl siding, namely softening and sagging.

I've noted plenty of evidence to support an internal heat source, you've not noted any evidence to back your claims and indeed you have fabricated claims not supported by anything the OP has posted.

Pete C.

[Pete C.]

I've looked at it several times and it's abundantly clear that there is no discoloration of the siding, only a change in the shadows and the reflection angle due to the deformation. Perhaps if you clean the crud of your monitor and or get some glasses you'll be able to see this fact.

Pete C.