two-way switches and recepticals

[JK]

It is possible to have two switches provide power to one receptacle? I'm having the hardest time troubleshooting this. I have one receptacle that is receiving power from two different switches. However, it seems one of the switches has to be "on" for the other to work. It does not matter which is on, but once the receptacle has power, either switch can then turn on and off the receptacle.

[Ralph Mowery]

I don't know if it meets any electrical code, but if you wire the receptacle like a light and use 3-way switches like a light , then it will act like one. You will be able to turn off and on the receptacle from either switch.

[JK]

[Ray K]

Are both switches single-pole (vs 3-way)? Single-pole will have two wires going into the body; both are usually black. A 3-way will have three wires going into the body.

If they are single pole, it sounds like one switch is in series with the hot terminal of the receptacle, and the other is in series with cold terminal. For around $7, you can get a receptacle tester from Radio Shace or Home Depot. Three lights tell you the status of an outlet.

[Brian O]

When you say the switch is "on" I'm assuming you mean in the up/on position. This is a typical three way switching system that is used all the time for lighting, especially when there are more than two accesses to a room. It is very possible, and in all probability its wired that way to accommodate a lamp. If you would like a diagram, let me know and Ill try to draw one up to email to you. B

[JK]

Well, I'm not even sure it's up. The switches are two-way switches, so "on" can be either up or down depending on what position the other is. However, it seems if one is "on" the other works. But if it's "off", the other does not.

I assume it's for a plug in light, but does that solve my problem?

[JK]

[Ray K]

This isn't what you said "However, it seems one of the switches has to be "on" for the other to work. It does not matter which is on, but once the receptacle has power, either switch can then turn on and off the receptacle."

The common on one switch should go to the hot (brass) terminal of the receptacle. The common on the other switch should go to the power source. Then connect the two other terminals on each switch to each other. (Ideally, both conductors are black.)

Do remember to shut off the power first.

Ray

[JK]

[BobK207]

This is way too difficult for a newbie to get instruction from a ng.

Get a DIY book on home repar or just on electrical work, Read up on the 3-way circuit stuff (they'll have diagrams).

After looking the book info over the ng info will make more sense.

Be careful.

cheer Bob

btw do you understand the concept of "solid neutral"? If not stop futzing with the circuits until you read up on electrical stuff.

[meirman]

In alt.home.repair on Tue, 1 Mar 2005 20:54:01 -0700 "JK" posted:

It's certainlyh possible for one receptacle to have two switches wired into its circuit, so that either can turn the receptacle on or off.**

It's possible for these to be wired correctly or incorrectly. When I bought my house, the front hall had two switches, one at either end, and one had to be up for the other switch to work. When it was down, nothing the other switch would do would make the light go on. I had to make a drawing of the wires and think about it for a while to decide how to reconnect one switch. And I had lots of experience, and a meter. You should go slower than I went (and yes, you should get a book on household electricity, or a chapter from a DIY book, maybe at the library, and read the parts dealilng with switches until you understand them. The most important factors were the clues I got from the way it worked to begin with. I forget my actual situation, but it might have been that the hot wire, the one from the fusebox was connected to one of the two equal-status connections on the three-way switch***, and the one at the common terminal was the one that should have been where it was. So in the end, I only had to reverse those two wires on one switch. But there are about 9**** ways you can connect 6 wires to 6 screws on 2 switches, so it really takes some thought. You know the way it is now is wrong (if I understand you.) so that leaves 8 more ways.

And you should probably get and use a meter that will measur e up to

150 volts AC. Better yet, up to 250 or more. ***3-way really means two-way. It works in either of two positions but has 3 wires. There are also 4-way switches, which should be called 4 wire switches. They only have two positions and work in only two ways. (They are used when you want to be able to turn a light or something on and off from 3 or more locations.) So don't get too hung up on -way. The ones you are dealing with are 3-wire switches. ****There would be 18 ways, but since two screws on each switch are equivalent, and reversing the wires on them won't change anything except the position of the toggle to get the same result., I divide by

2. The original electrician lived in our development. A house might have been part of the payment he received for the work he did. You could tell his house because of all the lights outside. :) and because the stove fan vented to the outside. At a HOA meeting, I made the mistake of telling him that he, or one of his men, had connected the switch wrong. It's not that he retaliated or anything, but he was denied he had made a mistake, and I just annoyed him for nothing.

**(It's also possible to have one switch go to one side of the receptacle and the other switch control the other side, but I don't know why one would do this. Still if the original installer did do this, my technique above will NOT work. That's why you need a meter and need to measure the voltage at each of the six screws. To distinguish this situation from the one I started with above. This is why you need to measure those 6 voltages 4 times, once each when both switches are up, when both are down, when switch A is up and B is down, and when A is down and B is up. Each set of meassrement should note whether or not the light is on or not with the switches in those positions When you are done writing this all down and thinking about it until you really understand it, until you can explain why the light is one when it is on and off when it is off, after you can draw a diagram of the wires between the switches^^, then you'll be ready to change the wiring.)

^^So that the wirees in your diagram are the same color at both ends as they are in real life (bearing in mind that sometimes the ends of the wire are painted a different color by the electrician. I know this last paragraph really complicates things. It's late. sorry.

Meirman

-- If emailing, please let me know whether or not you are posting the same letter. Change domain to erols.com, if necessary.

[Phisherman]

You need two three-way switches. These switches don't have an "ON" engraved on them, and if yours does have this you will need to replace it. If both switches do not have the "ON/OFF" then they are not wired properly.

[Joseph Meehan]

Then you have it wired incorrectly

Take a look at this to figure out what you need

[Ray K]

Truly bizarre. The outlet (plug) that's always on is powered directly from the AC line. Questions:

1. Is the black wire going to that outlet's brass screw also spliced with another wire? (This could be with a wire nut or via a wire poked into a hole in the back of the outlet.)
2. What color is that wire? (Tell me it's red.)
3. How many cables attach to the outlet box?
4. How many wires in each cable? (Don't count the bare wire.)
5. Are there any other splices in the outlet box? How many wires, what colors?
6. Does each switch have only one cable to it? If not, how many cables and how many wire in each?

The only way I can see for this to work is as follows:

The black wire going to the always-on outlet is also spliced to a red wire that goes to the common terminal of one switch. The common terminal of the other switch has a red wire that goes to the brass screw on the switched outlet. The other two terminals on each switch are connected to each other with black and white wires.

Schematically, this will work. The strange part is the actual cabling. There must be lots of splices in the outlet box.

[Ray K]

Go here,

and look at the diagram for wiring a 3-way switch. Imagine the light bulb replaced with your duplex outlet. Incoming power (black wire) goes first to the always-on outlet. Then, the incoming power is spliced to the white wire that goes to the common of the first switch.

Note that the common in the left switch is fed by a white wire, and the common in the right switch connects to a black wire that eventually makes it way back to the switched outlet. Note the splice of black wires in the left switch box. Also, in the schematic where it says Power Source, the top wire is white and the bottom is black.

Cheers,

Ray

[modervador]

Or wired correctly but a wire is broken where you can't see it.

Or wired correctly with no broken wires but one of the switches is malfunctioning (it could be either switch in a 3-way circuit).

Once you figure out what you have then you can make some sense out of the steps to diagnose the problem.

%mod%

[Ray K]

About that splice at the duplex outlet: If the outlet has both screws and holes in the back, run the input black wire to the screw and poke into the hole in the back the white wire that goes to the left switch.

[Joseph Meehan]

Good catch. Those are possibilities.

[Mr Fixit eh]

JK, this is one of the most difficult electrical configurations possible. What makes this complicated is that there are 4 possible ways in which this circuit is wired. Here is a link that shows you the

4 possible wiring diagrams (ignore the information on 'X10' systems. Caution: ALWAYS SHUT OFF THE BREAKER/ FUSE FOR THE CIRCUIT , AND test for voltage with either a voltmeter, tick-tester, or a neon tester BEFORE you open up any electrical box

The circuit will only work correctly if BOTH of the switches are truly '3-way' switches. When you look at the switch, a 3-way will have 3 screw terminals. Two terminals screws are the same color--these will be for the 'traveller' wires (usually black and red, but not always), the odd-colored terminal is for the common wire, (usually black or white with back tape applied).

I suspect that either one of your switches has been replaced by a regular switch instead of a '3-way', or the traveller wires have gotten switched around.

I can't tell your DIY ability from your post, JK. If you are not comfortable and do not have a good understanding of electrical theory, please call in an electrician.

If you want to tackle this yourself, buy a good book and do some research, as was suggested above.

I would recommend you try reversing the black/red wires at one switch, restore power and test both switches. If both switches do not control the light, then reverse the wires back. Go to the other switch and reverse the black/ red wires, and restore power/ test again.

If you still don't get this working, go to

and post your question with the exact configuration of every wire at each switch and the receptacle.

[JK]