jumping power from a 3 way switch to a single-pole switch

[JK]

Okay, I have what I think is a strange occurrence, and I'll do my best to explain.

I'm trying to jump power from one of my 3-way switches that turns on my kitchen lights to another switch that will control my under the cabinet lights. Since I believe the switch I'm trying to get power to is not the one that is directly getting power from a power source, but rather is getting the power from the traveler (red) wire. So, what I did was pigtail the power from the traveler to the switch that runs the under the cabinet lights. I have yet to wire the undercabinet lights, but that switch seems to be wired fine. (There is one hot that is always hot, and the blacking going to the lights [or what will eventually be lights] is live when I flip the switch.)

Now the strange occurrence is my 3-way switches. The one I did not jump the power to has to be up for the other switch to work. If it is down, the one I jumped power to does not work. Part of me thinks it's because I have not wired the cabinet lights yet. Could that be what is causing this strange occurrence? (I'm asking now before I climb up into the attic to try this, in case there is something I'm missing.)

[JK]

Correct, this is what I want to be able to do. Is not having a neutral going to cause any potential problems?

[JK]

wow, it almost sounds like you're calling me both lazy and stupid? Is that the case? Maybe a bit lost, but I've never been called lazy and stupid (and especially in the same sentence).

We've d>

[Goedjn]

There's a solution below, once you've decided to treat your house wiring with the respect it deserves, but first, a little vitriol:

If you can't draw what wires go where and figure out what the attached lights are going to do with each flip of a switch, you shouldn't be messing with house-wiring in the first place. This isn't because it's beyond your capabilities. It's not all that complicated. It's because you are manifestly being both lazy and sloppy. If you weren't lazy, you have figured out how the existing set-up worked, and you wouldn't currently be confused about what had gone wrong. If you weren't sloppy, you wouldn't have lost track of the wires. Lazy and sloppy is worse than stupid, when you're doing house wiring. Now you're GUESSING what you did wrong, and hoping that another more or less random change will make it right. And that *IS* stupid.

In this case, you can't do what you're trying to do, because NONE of the wires at the second switch in a two-switch system are always hot.

I suspect that you've swapped the colored wire from the cable that runs to the existing light fixture with the wire of the same color from the cable that comes from the first switch.

--Goedjn

[JK]

[Chris Lewis]

According to JK :

Remember that at any given moment, only one of the two travellers has power. Which traveller has power is determined _only_ by the 3-way that's attached to unswitched power (the "line 3-way", as opposed to "load

3-way").

If you use a simple two way switch to "tap" off a 3 way circuit traveller, the

2-way switch will only see power when the "line 3-way" switch is the position that energizes the traveler the 2-way is on - when it's in the other position, the traveller connected to the 2-way won't ever see power, and hence the light is unconditionally off.

You can "improve" the situation by replacing the 2-way with a 3-way (the legs connected to the travellers, the center contact to its load), but you'll end up in a potential insanity-inducing situation. Ie: label your switches A, B and C. A is the load-connected 3-way switch for one bank of lights, B the load-connected 3-way switch for the other bank, and C being the line-connected 3-way switch. In one B setting, C will turn both banks on and off simultaneously. In the other B setting, toggling C will swap which bank is on.

I think that'll drive you insane ;-)

[You'd have a "Y"'d two-way. The center switch (the load 3-way), alternates with the switch on _each_ leg. Ick!]

I _assume_ you want your undercabinet light to be switch on-able only when the main overheads are on. So that if you turn off the overheads, the undercabinet will go off. To do this, you need to connect the 2-way switch to the switched hot going to the overhead mains, not the travellers.

Depending on the layout, simply attaching the 2-way switch to the center conductor (probably white if it's 12/3 or 14/3) will get you the appropriate hot, but you won't have a neutral for the undercabinet fixture. Or, vice-versa.

[Robert Barr]

You mean other than the light not working?

I know what you're trying to do, and it's easy enough to sketch out, but with no neutral, you're out of luck. If you DO find a neutral, make sure it's from the same circuit that feeds your 3-way.

[Chris Lewis]

According to Robert Barr :

Another way of putting it: lightbulbs need an electron goesinta and an electron goesouta. Without the neutral you don't got a goesouta. ;-)

[Note to the pedantic: with AC, you still need a goesinta and a goesouta, but they switch roles 60 times per second. With one wire, you don't have a goesinta and a goesouta at the same time ;-)]

Best way to do this is to tap the hot and neutral directly off the already-3-wayed kitchen fixture leads.

[Beeper]

[JK]

[jackjohnson]

Dude

You are going about this all wrong and using the wrong tools. You only need two tools. One is called a telephone, the other is called the Yellow Pages. Open the yellow pages, go to the "E" pages and look up the word "Electrician". Call one of them and hire them before you electricute yourself or burn down the house.

The reason they have professionals is because no one else, especially idiots like yourself, should be touching wiring, or for that matter, plumbing, paint, lumber, concrete, or anything. Any tool beyond a telephone, phone book, and pen and paper are beyond your ability to use. Let the professionals do all your work for you, unless you have some sort of suicidal tendencies or are trying to ignite your house for insurance purposes, in which case you belong in prison before you destroy your whole family in the inferno you are about to create.

Before you even touch another wire, call the fire department and warn them of the impending fire you are about to experience. Then call any electrician in the Yellow Pages, and tell them to immediately come to your home and shut off the breakers for you, until you can get them to rewire and inspect everything you touched. Do not delay. call immediately. Your home is on the verge of a flare up. By the time you read this message, it may be too late. If you had posted your address, I would have already phoned the Fire Department for you.

Shut off your computer NOW, and call for help. You may already be smelling smoke. In fact, dont use your own home phone. Get out of that house NOW. Take your family outside and use your cell phone or a neighbors home to call the Fire Department. GET OUT NOW !!!

If you survive this fire, DO NOT ever touch wiring again. It is extremely complicated, and you are incapable of doing wiring. Besides that, it's illegal to touch wiring without an electricians license.

GO - GET OUT OF THERE............

Jack

[JK]

[Duane Bozarth]

....

No, there isn't. You really apparently

[Goedjn]

You can't do, by any normal means, the thing that you said you were trying to accomplish, which is to take an always-on supply feed to another switch from the box containing the second switch in a 2-switch system.

If you understood what you were doing, you'd have known that before you tried.

You can't GET the results you are claiming to get without changing things that you are claiming not to have changed.

I understand that you're sure you know what you've done. That's the problem. You ARE sure, and you're wrong.

--Goedjn

[Lawrence Wasserman]

Ha ha! That's a good one!

[Doug Miller]

He may not have phrased his advice in a very diplomatic manner, but it was good advice: you clearly don't understand the first thing about what you are trying to do. You gave a crystal-clear demonstration of that, when you asked Chris Lewis if not having a neutral would cause any problems. Anyone who has to ask that question has NO BUSINESS working with electricity because he knows NOTHING about it.

It's no big deal if you paint your house without knowing what you're doing; all that happens if you screw up is you wind up with an ugly- looking house. But if you screw up electrical wiring because you don't know how to do it right -- AND YOU DON'T -- you can electrocute someone, or burn your house down.

Screwed-up electrical work can KILL.

You don't have the knowledge or skills to do it without screwing it up.

PLEASE call a professional.

[JK]

Wow, they are coming out the woodwork today. You guys are a friggin riot.

[Doug Miller]

Sorry. Electricity is NOT something to mess around with if you don't know what you're doing. And you sure don't seem to.

It does not appear that way, from the questions you have asked. Quite the opposite, in fact: what you're trying to do can't be done, and it's *very* clear you have no idea why.

-- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt. And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

[trooper]

He could be doing the whole job himself and doing it safely if he used one of those battery operated lights. Simply install two "D" cells, attach the included self adhesive velcro pad under the cabinet and push the light onto the velcro. A ten minute job at most and 100% safe. You can buy them at Walmart and many other stores for around $5. Batteries not included.

[tm]

So, I guess my suggestion that you soak pine branches in kerosene and use them for torchlight is unnecessary? It was a valid suggestion.

Go with a brownish-green. Won't show the stains. Make sure to buy quality paint. Hire a professional if you don't know what you are doing.