Well, it is now cheaper to build Toyota Corolla and RAV4 vehicles in
Canada tha in Japan, and if the standard of living in China improves
much at all, it will soon be the case for Chinese production as well.
I heard from a tool importer that much of the "chinese" power tools
are actually assembled onboard ship. They travel from port to port
picking up parts in the far east, assembling them en route to North
America. Warranty returns are repaired onboard ship and are returned
on the next round. He said the same was true of many small appliances
- basically "factory ships" Manufacturing, warehousing, and shipping
all in one place.
On 12/08/2013 07:55 PM, firstname.lastname@example.org wrote:
Fascinating! All that transportation time with nothing to
do. Now filling a need.
My Subi Forrester is American made with Japanese management.
United Auto Workers union to boot. I love the thing. Very
high quality. (I could do without the rubber band timing
chain, but they have since gone to a direct drive.)
On the other hand American made, American managed cars ...
(Will never own another one again.)
the riddle wrapped in an enigma wrapped
On Friday, December 6, 2013 10:13:54 PM UTC-5, westom wrote:
e: > Then the typical LED recessed light that one buys should > have specs
and install instructions that say airflow past > some heatsink is required.
Yet there are plenty of them from > the major manufacturers where: ... In
optics engineering magazines were numerous articles on overheating of both
CFL and LED bulbs. Fixtures designed for incandescent bulbs do not need sam
e airflow. CFL bulb life expectancy tends to be shorter when the bulb is po
sitioned so that electronics are above the glowing gas. LEDs radiate their
heat into a heatsink that is ineffective if airflow does not exist in the f
ixture. Both problems seriously diminish bulb life expectancy. A problem no
t discussed at the consumer level. Similar problems with sodium bulb orient
ation were not discussed at the consumer level decades previously. LED bulb
s (such as those that won the X-prize) need airflow over the heatsinke. LED
s at that wattage have heat problems not found in LEDs at lesser power leve
Then it should be easy to provide us with the spec sheet, the install
instructions for the typical residential recessed LED lights, like the
50W equivalent ones the OP is talking about, where it talks about the requi
red airflow and how to achieve it.
I've looked at a lot of them and again, they were rated for direct contact
with insulation and many were ASTM certified airtight between the living
space and attic. For those 50W equivalent, you're talking about a whopping
9 watts of heat.....
Can there be thermal problems with some because they are designed incorrect
Sure. But that doesn't equate into an airflow requirement, special install
considerations for most of them. And again, if it's true, provide us with
the spec sheet for a 50W recessed that says you have to provide airflow and
how to achieve it.
E suspect many of my LED failures are heat related as they are in
eyeball bots in a high suspended ceiling (the 12 volt ones) and
infaitly closely shrouded sockets on some of the 120 volt ones -
although there most of the ones that have failed have free air access
to the LED heat sinks. Suspecting it is the driver electronics
failing, I have dissasembled a few and the LEDs themselves are, for
the most part, still good. They fail in 3 ways - all LEDs dim or all
Leds flashing on the 12 volts, and all LEDs flashing ,or dim with one
out on the 120 volt. All dim or all flashing have generally been
circuit failures, but several of the earlier 120s had LED element
failures (dim with one element out, or totally dead)
These have 3 or 4 3 watt Cree LEDs.
On Monday, December 2, 2013 3:43:00 PM UTC-8, Gary wrote:
Recessed lighting was originally used in stores to light the merchandise wi
thout having to shine into the eyes of the customers and cause glare. The l
ight bulbs that were used in these fixtures were spot (not flood) light bul
bs which usually have only a ten degree of light distribution. People liked
the aspect of non glaring ceiling lights so much that recessed lighting ca
me to be widely used in residents as well.
1. Does your electrician know where to get a hold of spot (not flood) type
LED light bulbs for under $55.00 each? If he does please let me know becaus
e I would like to get some too.
2. What is the light distribution of these LED light bulbs that your electr
ician is recommending? Is it ten degrees?
3. Will you mind if you completely defeat the original design and purpose o
f your recessed lighting?
On Tuesday, December 3, 2013 2:18:16 PM UTC-8, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Any beam spread of more than 22 degrees is considered a flood light bulb. The smallest beam spread of the LEDs on the Costco website are 38 degrees which is considered a flood and not a spot light bulb.
A little additional information from the OP
Our house is in the Costa Rican mountains. Our climate is such that we need
neither air conditioning nor heat. Our electric bill is $180/mo which
covers lights and the pool pump. There are only two of us and only a few
bulbs are on at a time. Cooking and hot water are propane. Ceilings are
mostly 15 feet which makes changing bulbs inconvenient. Even with 85
halogen bulbs, the chandeliers, and the wall sconces the house is under lit.
One advantage of changing to LEDs is we can go above the 50W equivalent and
get a little more light.
On 12/04/2013 04:23 PM, email@example.com wrote:
To put my 2 cents in, I am an Electrical Engineer:
Halogen bulbs run very, very hot. I my opinion, they
are a fire hazard and I would not have them in my house.
Compact fluorescents are cheaper to run, but their run time
ratings as a crock of s--- (Home Depot, etc.). They don't
last any longer than incandescents and they are way more
The only company I have found with long lived compact
fluorescents are Satco (available from Amazon.com). I
use these in my house. If using compact fluorescents,
you are still going to be changing them a lot. I have seen
special poles with grabber on the end for changing high ceiling
lights. Plan on a few falling and breaking, spreading
small amounts of mercury all over the place. (You are
probably in more danger from the broken glass.)
LED lamps run cool to the touch. A good thing. Heat
is the enemy of all things electronic. And LED's are
the cheapest to run.
The dirty ugly secret about "white" LED lights (not the
colored ones) is that you have to heat sink off heat or
they will become regular diodes and loose their ability
to create light. So, you can't put them in a hot
environment without ventilation to bleed off the heat.
How hot is your ceiling and does it have circulation.
LED's are also temperamental about having clean power.
Your voltage needs to within parameter and no spikes.
So, the run times advertised for LED's are only under
the most ideal conditions.
So it is all about trade offs. Me personally, I'd ditch
the halogens and go LED. And make sure I had a ceiling fan.
the riddle wrapped in an enigma wrapped
Halogen bulbs, in the same envelope, run no hotter than standard
bulbs. I love the things. You can't get a better light to work by.
They also take an age to come up to full brightness. I'm usually in
the room and out, before they'd come up to full brightness. They do
have a place though (a generic replacement for incandescents isn't
1000bulbs.com carries Satco, too. Good prices.
If you buy the run-time specs.
That's true of all LEDs. The LEDs themselves are very small and do
get extremely hot. That heat has to be moved somewhere else or
Not any more so than CFLs. It's the electronics that's the problem.
They're fairly similar.
I wouldn't. Not yet. LEDs aren't ready for prime time yet and
Halogen's light is perfect.
On 12/04/2013 06:04 PM, firstname.lastname@example.org wrote:
It is the white ones that go far sooner than the colored
ones. I found this out the hard way running colored and white
in several circuits I did not properly heat sink. All the white
ones shorted out.
When I was talking about about heat, I did not mean
the pin point light source. I meant your hand.
the riddle wrapped in an enigma wrapped
On 12/4/2013 6:58 PM, email@example.com wrote:
Ok, a watt is a watt. But, aren't the envelopes radically different for the
same wattage in typical consumer applications?
And that leads to higher bulb surface temperatures for halogen.
First hit on wikipedia talks about how the hotter surface temperature
is required for the halogen cycle to work.
Yes and no. There are "naked" halogen bulbs that do get quite hot but
they're really no big deal if you take some small precautions. There
are also halogen bulbs that have identical envelopes to those of
standard incandescent bulbs. They come in the standard A series
envelopes, reflector spots and floods, and many other standard shapes,
intended as "tungsten" replacements. The light from these is superior
to standard bulbs.
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