On 8/19/2012 2:33 PM, firstname.lastname@example.org wrote:
Anyone who works with contracts knows about the UCC (Uniform Commercial
Code) which was specifically implemented to have standard verbage for
It actually means what I said. You may want to do a little research on
standard verbage used in commercial contracts.
Cornell has a searchable version online:
And you better go read the UCC instead of posting
links to it. Because you have this totally
WRONG. The UCC says you have an implied warranty
of merchantibility UNLESS THE CONTRACT SPECIFICALLY
EXCLUDES IT. Which makes sense. It' saying if
you sell a hammer, it should be usable as a hammer
unless SPECIFICALLY EXCLUDED in the contract.
And exclude merchantibility and fitness is exactly what
this shyster contract does in black and white. The
contractor is saying this generator installation doesn't
have to even function as a generator and you can't
hold me responsible.
The problem is far more prevelant than you state, and happens over and over
again for many questions which are posted to this newsgroup. I have posted
questions myself here several times and been frustrated by replies which
answered some other question or made some very tangential remarks which
were partially or entirely off topic. Others have commented on this same
The cross posting adds to the problem. My iPhone newsreader does not show
the additional crossposting newsgroups so I may inadvertently reply to such
a post without realizing it. I certainly have no way to originate such
In my area as well, the people who install fully automatic generators
seem to get 10 to 12 K for standard installations. It does seem like a
lot considering the price of the equipment itself. That being said, a
thing is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it.
If I were choosing a fully automatic, I would try to find one with a 4
pole generator, which will run at 1800 RPM, as opposed to the cheaper
stuff running at 3600. I would oversize my needs in KW, but not go
overboard. Just because you have a 16KW generator running, doesn't mean
it costs any more than a 6KW unit, if you're only pulling 6KW on it.
There is a point of diminishing returns though, so you don't want to get
a 30KW if you require a minimum of 5KW. Everything I read about generac,
indicates that they're built to the lowest common denominator, and I
have a buddy who is a generac dealer. He doesn't give me the impression
that they are of particularly high quality.
Another thing you could do, is buy the machine yourself, and hire an
electrician and plumber to do the installation
In fact, the generator efficiency is very highly correlated to how close
the load demand equals the supply capacity. A 16KW generator supplying
6KW will do so at much greater operating cost for fuel compared to the
same 6KW being delivered by the 7KW model.
When I did the sizing for my own unit, in 2006, the difference between
cost of a KW-Hr between the Generac 7KW unit and the 16KW unit when
supplying 6KW was over 2 to 1. The difference is very substantial since
a KW-Hr of electricity costs nearly a dollar at today's fuel cost with
my more efficient generator, versus $2 for the same KW-Hr produced by
the 16KW generator when both are asked to supply 6KW per hour to a load.
The savings of $24 a day in fuel is not insignificant.
The cost of the equipment also nearly doubles also, in my case $1600
versus $3000 for the Generac itself.
So, the suggestion to get the "right-sized" generator is a good one,
both considering first cost and then recurring cost.
On the flip side, the smaller engines used in the 7KW unit (versus the
16KW) apparently wear out sooner, but this data is much less available
and is very hard to find / quantify.
Nonsense, here is a chart of two multiquip single phase generators: Note
that the 20KW unit uses less fuel running at half load, than the 10KW
uses at full load
Full load 0.97 gph 3.7 lph
3/4 load 0.75 gph 2.8 lph
1/2 load 0.58 gph 2.2 lph
1/4 load 0.44 gph 1.7 lph
Full load 1.66 gph 6.3 lph
3/4 load 1.21 gph 4.6 lph
1/2 load 0.85 gph 3.2 lph
1/4 load 0.58 gph 2.2 lph
Yeah, definitely an efficiency curve going on. For a person who needs
5KW minimum and occasionally wants to use higher amperage stuff like
electric range, clothes dryer, etc, something like a 12KW, would
probably be the most efficient choice
No doubt some other manufacturers equipments behave differently, but as
the original post requested, we are now discussing Generac standby
generators and the way they compare.
Is 'multiquip' the name of a manufacturer of consumer standby generators?
You're wrong......!!!! I have no idea what you refer to as a "multiquip"
generator might be, but we are talking about Generac generators and here
are the facts:
The demand for 7 KW from the smaller 6/7K unit in natural gas is 119
cubic feet of natural gas per hour. This is the full load demand of
their smallest model.
The demand for 7KW from their largest home standby generator, the 16KW
unit, is 173 cubic feet per four. This is half loading of their largest
I have linked the actual page (page 7) from the Installer's Manual from
Guardian for a fairly recent model year to substantiate this data:
In the year I made my selection and choice, 2006, the spread was even
greater, and is what I previously stated in my earlier post, approx 2 to 1.
I have no problem accepting the notion that each unit has had its engine
and generator designed to deliver maximum efficiency near or at the
rated size, and thus the largest unit, if used only to half its
capacity, is far less efficient at that operating point than a unit
designed to produce the actual demand running nearly full power.
Heat exchangers, particularly in the most modern high efficiency
furnaces, are similarly narrow banded. Speaking as a retired electrical
engineer and hardware designer, I would most likely have chosen the same
The "Multiquip" generators you are using as your reference are diesel
powered job site temporary generators, and are not the type being asked
about in this post.
Basing your attack / challenge of "nonsense" on such NONSENSE is
classical apples versus oranges type of logic.
Yes, indeed, the Multiquip diesel powered temporary generators do have
an entirely different efficiency curve which does not resemble the
Generac design used in their home standby generators.............
Sorry, but you jumped into my direct reply to the OP, my reply to where
the OP asks "Anyway, has anyone in here have any opinions as to the
>>>>>>>> Generac vs. Kohler or some other brands of generators?
My suggestion was to look at 4 pole 1800 RPM generators, and I went on
to explain my opinion. I used Multiquip as a reference because their
data is easily available. There are plenty of similar fully automatic
diesel units available, which have similar specs.
I guess I have a real problem with dismissive replies like "Nonsense"
when the original poster requested a natural gas standby generator which
does not need a fuel replenishment and has a transfer switch which
automatically restores utility power. Your reply, with a portable
generator is entirely different from what he asks for, has none of these
features, and is, if anything, NONSENSE.............
And yes, no doubt you and I can both find all sorts of generators which
have all sorts of efficiency differences, including those which do not
have a severe penalty for oversizing like the Generac models I cited.
Those are, of course, not what the original poster was asking for.
I would ask that you
You need to learn to read, and stop setting up straw men. The OP doesn't
"request" anything regarding natural gas generators, he merely mentions
their ease of operation. He does however "request" opinions of Generac
and Kohler and "other brands". FYI those multiquips as well as other
brands of diesels can be set up for fully automatic operation, just like
a propane or NG unit. I just thought the OP may want another option
The nearly 80 year old man who originally posted said "a natural gas
operated standby does all the work itself, plus knows exactly when the
power comes back on."
If you think he wanted a diesel work site Multiquip with wheels, then you
are the one with a reading problem.
I think I might even call your reply "Nonsense" since you chose to
erroneously bestow that term on me........
And as I said before, you need to learn to read. I used Multiquip for
data purposes only. There are plenty of fully automatic diesel units
without wheels. Who knows, maybe the OP would prefer a high quality
diesel, over some cheap consumer grade junk.
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