Question about breaking the bead using a harbor freight bead breaker?

On Tue, 13 Dec 2016 19:40:44 +0000 (UTC), Frank Baron
look at this one too -- He knows what he's doing and has addressed a few of the shortcomings.
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On Mon, 12 Dec 2016 19:55:25 -0700, rbowman advised:

Just to let folks know what does *NOT* work, this black swan-neck bead breaker bar from Harbor Freight is utterly useless also.
http://i.cubeupload.com/oiD34u.jpg
You can't get any purchase anywhere with it. You may as well use a butter knife for all it does.
I'm a bit mad at HF because the ad says it's for cars but it's not: http://www.harborfreight.com/tire-bead-breaker-with-swan-neck-67403.html
The reviews tell us that it is only for certain types of trucks and tractors with a "lock" bead (whatever that is). REVIEW QUOTE: It is meant to break the bead from lock rings on a loader tire
I don't know what a "loader tire" is, nor what a "lock ring" is for such a tire, but I do (now) know emphatically that this swan-neck bead breaker bar is utterly useless for passenger car tires.
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On Tue, 13 Dec 2016 19:02:06 +0000 (UTC), Frank Baron

Your problems are 2, and only 2. You are CHEAP, and you don't have a clue how to use the tools.
A cheap tool in the hands of a master can be made to work reasonably well. In the hands of an amateur, it will very seldom do the job the first time - much-less stand up long term. Much better to find an OLD manual tire changer made for professional use, and have the old codger that owned it and used it for 50 years show you how to use it. Don't second guess the guy because he did it for a living, and therefore, being a mechanic or technician, cannot be trusted. I can even see you going to a Hunter rep and buying a real tire changer and then not listening to him explain what options to buy and how to use it (if you weren't so cheap)
Sorry - but I just don't see this going anywhere.
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snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

All the tires are mounted and balanced.
http://i.cubeupload.com/qyytFT.jpg
I learned a *lot*, so thanks for all your advice.
I'm gonna patch some tires today, for example but they will be so easy that they don't count (since they are normal passenger car tires at 60 series alloy wheels).
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On 12/12/2016 5:45 PM, Frank Baron wrote: ...
<http://www.ebay.com/itm/USED-COATS-40-40-TIRE-CHANGER ...
at $60+/- at the moment...keep watching/looking and can eventually find a usable changer that will actually work.
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On Tue, 13 Dec 2016 14:06:51 -0600, dpb advised:

I found a way to shore up the harbor freight tire changer so that it works on the tougher 75-series 108T SUV tires (60 series passenger tires would be far easier) and posted that as a response to the original post.
One question though, is what tool do you guys recommend for removing the old crimp on wheel weights?
http://i.cubeupload.com/0D6Lnt.jpg
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On Wed, 14 Dec 2016 05:36:12 +0000 (UTC), Frank Baron

Oh no - after what I just said, here we go again!!!! A damned wheel weight pliers, of coarse!!! Google "wheel weight pliers"
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On Wed, 14 Dec 2016 22:21:15 -0500, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca advised:

Turns out, after some research and talking to the pros, there's really no need for those wheel-weight pliers just as there is absolutely no need for any special valve removal or insertion tools.
Still, some tools are just nice to have even if they're not necessary.
I already bought the valve-puller tool, for example, mainly because I wanted to feel for myself how much easier it made an already easy task of removing and inserting the valves.
http://i.cubeupload.com/BurSRM.jpg
I'll probably do the same experiment for the wheel weight puller tool:
http://i.cubeupload.com/pkMgfr.jpg
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On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 04:42:21 +0000 (UTC), Frank Baron

You can use a sledge hammer or an axe if you like to put them on, and you can beat them off with a chisel, but the proper tool as always it much easier . And you asked "what tool do you use to remove the weights. I, and most mechanics, use a weight pliers - so I answered your question - didn't I???
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On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 01:10:11 -0500, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca advised:

You are correct and I apologize for changing the rules mid thread. Yes, I did ask. And I now know what tool they use.
I do like to use good tools, like everyone, and I am not the type normally to use a hammer for everything, so I will "probably" get the wheel weight pliers.
I say probably because I may just use the stick-on weights for everything. I don't know yet. It's also just as likely that I'll use the P-type crimp-on weights for these steel wheels.
I'm looking at this catalog, for example, and what I "probably" should get is the following on page 185: A. Wheel weight pliers and hammer B. Wheel weight scraper C. Rim Gauge
http://www.tuffymfg.com/docs/Pg177-188-Wheel%20BalancingSupplies.pdf
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On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 06:31:22 +0000 (UTC), Frank Baron

If you are only going to static balance anyway, stock only the stik-on weights and apply them to the CENTER of the rim. That way you are not splitting weights and quite possibly making the dynamic balance worse. It is also the onlr economical way of having the weight you require for all situations. When "roughing" the balance plsce the weighy at the point you will be installing it (an inch or two in from the bead, on most of those rims) - it will take a wee bit more weight in there, but you won't throw them nearly as easily, being held in place by rotational force as well as the tape.
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On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 02:00:51 -0500, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca advised:

Clare, that's good advice.
The beauty of the stickon weights for home use is that they fit everything, and they don't need special tools, and they can be easily stocked in assorted sizes and they can be easily sliced in half if necessary, etc.
So, if stickon weights work for steel wheels, they should be given a chance to work. The flat areas of the rim are gonna be along the inside anyway, near to the center anyway, whereas the crimp-on weights would be along the outside edge.
I already have plenty of stickon weights because I picked them up at HF already.
Thanks for the encouragement to use them, as the P-type weights (which pretty much is what the Toyota steel wheels seem to use) would need to be obtained in all sorts of sizes and they wouldn't work for all wheels like the stickons can.
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On Mon, 12 Dec 2016 23:45:12 +0000 (UTC), Frank Baron advised:

The main problem is simply that I have a tough tire (a 108T, which is a pretty thick SUV tire compared to much easier passenger car tires), and that the harbor freight tire-changing tool requires modification to work on such tough tires without bending.
I took my time to document what I learned so that the next person who uses the same equipment can benefit from the 20/20 hindsight this tutorial provides them for how to use the harbor freight tire changer to: a. Break the lower bead of the old tire away from the wheel b. Break the upper bead of the old tire away from the wheel c. Remove the upper bead of the old tire from the wheel d. Remove the lower bead of the old tire from the wheel e. Remove the old Schrader valve and stem assembly f. Insert the new Schrader valve and stem assembly g. Place the lower bead of the new tire on the wheel h. Place the upper bead of the new tire on the wheel i. Align the red (or yellow) dot to the valve stem (or to the wheel match-mounting mark) j. Seat the beads by filling the tire with air k. Check the valve stem clearance, match mounting marks, and adjust pressure to normal psi
The goal is that they start knowing all the things that I just learned today, which make the job far easier and which makes the tools work far better.
The first thing I did was straighten out the bent bead-breaking wedge bars, which was so easy to do one might conclude that they're actually made of rubber.
http://i.cubeupload.com/JfWmot.jpg
What the bead breaker shovel needs, from the start, is a bit of support, which is shown here (but after using it, I realized it needs to be about 2 inches from the top of the wedge to leave clearance for the rim of the wheel when breaking beads).
Luckily this wedge simply moved out of the way because it was just press fit in and wrapped with solid 120V copper wire. (Given more time, I would not weaken the bars any further by drilling bolt holes - but - I would strap in a rectangular block of wood instead of this fence post, which just happened to be handy.)
http://i.cubeupload.com/hzdzpZ.jpg
I started on the inside bead, which I'm told, is the harder one to break.
By moving the Clovis pin to the outside adjustment hole (making the angle about 90 degrees to the tire), and with this artificially strengthened wedge, I was (finally) able to apply (far) more force on the 108T tire bead without the wedge slipping off the bead itself.
http://i.cubeupload.com/VIu5nb.jpg
The fence post got in the way of the rim as shown in this photo, so, if you permanently mount it, make sure it's shorter by about 2 or 3 inches than the space allotted, and make sure it's mounted up high and not low where mine is now.
Notice how the wooden block hits the rim? You don't want that.
You want the block to stay higher up, away from the rim by a couple of inches. But, in this case, it didn't matter because the block moved when pressure was placed on it.
http://i.cubeupload.com/kYwRJt.jpg
The stronger wedge plus the 90 degree angle from using the furthest-out of the 3 adjustment pin holes allowed me to apply enough force to finally pop the inside-rim bead of the admittedly strong 108T tire sidewall.
http://i.cubeupload.com/tMHBFS.jpg
Only after I popped the underside tire bead did I try to remove the lever arm, where I found that it bent at about a 10 or 15 degree angle. It took that much force, but you have to also realize that this harbor freight metal is soft as rubber.
http://i.cubeupload.com/3q4ZU3.jpg
After straightening the bent tire iron as much as I could, and after moving the clovis pin to the center hole to get more of an angle, and using a tire iron to keep a depressed bead down, I easily popped the upper bead.
http://i.cubeupload.com/k527JN.jpg
Placing the tire iron flat step with the step side up, allowed me to start spinning the top bead off the wheel rim without lubrication:
http://i.cubeupload.com/Zf44Tl.jpg
Adding dish detergent helped a lot to spin the top bead off, where I'd say it's a requirement to have lubrication but everything gets slippery, even the tools, so try to keep it off the tools.
http://i.cubeupload.com/hdveUJ.jpg
You repeat the process for the lower bead, with the tire iron again going in step-side up as in the first bead (the same way as it did for the upper bead).
http://i.cubeupload.com/5BIFb7.jpg
Once the tire was off the rim, I cut off the old 1-1/4 inch tire valve from the underside with a utility knife, where the old valve was in surprisingly good shape, so I might have kept it had I not wanted to test out the 4-way valve-seating tool and the fit of the longer new 1-1/2 inch long tire valves.
http://i.cubeupload.com/f5L099.jpg
After lubricating the new 1-1/2 inch valve with dish soap, I threaded on the 4-way tool and pulled it through so easily that it was shockingly simple.
Later you'll see I have a much better idea to replace that silly 4-way tool that I already have in my compressor toolbox, so I never needed the silly 4-way tool in the first place, but I didn't realize that until later.
http://i.cubeupload.com/goBGRq.jpg
Only later, when I was filling the tire with air, did I realize that a handy tool for pulling the valve would have been my compressor football/soccer-ball needle-valve tool, with the needle valve removed, which spins onto the valve threads with ease and which has a nice trigger handle to grab onto so that the valve can be pulled into place.
But I didn't think of this at the time I was seating the first valve, so, it's just a lesson learned for the future, and for someone else who happens to read this for hints on how to do the job without that silly 4-way valve seating tool (which is never needed).
http://i.cubeupload.com/Zr23tu.jpg
The bottom bead of the new tire went on 3/4 of the way by hand, and then with a two-foot tire iron, the last quarter went on relatively easily.
http://i.cubeupload.com/mA6HJx.jpg
It's important to remember to flip the tool and set the hook side appropriately because you're not going to seat the top bead unless you have the tool oriented this way exactly. (Lord knows what the other tip is use for.)
http://i.cubeupload.com/3xskBg.jpg
You'll want to ensure you seat the bead at the tire-valve first because that last quarter gets dicey where you have to use the most strength in the whole job, and where a slippery bar gets obnoxious.
I had to vise grip the end of the bar that I was holding because it kept twisting off the bead but with vise grips, it was manageable.
At the very least, you'll want to use vise grips to hold the slippery upper bead from slipping off as you try to force the last 1/4 of the upper bead onto the rim.
http://i.cubeupload.com/r6g3JG.jpg
This is the point where you're extremely glad the tool is firmly bolted to cement, as the force is as much as you can give it.
Even so, I found I had to ditch the slippery but huge red pry bar and resort to two 24-inch tire irons to leverage the remaining upper bead over onto the wheel rim.
http://i.cubeupload.com/czF7Qu.jpg
It's at this point, before you fill the tire with air, that you line up the red dot to the match-mounting marks, or, the yellow dot to the valve stem (if there is no red dot) or if there is a red dot but no match mounting marks, then you line up the red dot to the valve stem.
After doing that, I first removed the inner valve stem of the Schrader valve and tried to use my latching air chuck, but without the valve stem, the darn chuck wouldn't pass any air (so I gave up on this method).
http://i.cubeupload.com/WJGeQr.jpg
It was dark and drizzly when I just decided to put the valve stem back in and put the latching chuck back on (although later I found a neat trick that I will try with the next tire).
It turns out that having the valve stem in or out really made no difference whatsoever, it seems, with respect to getting the air inside and getting the bead to seat.
The trick to seating the bead is really to have two hands free to hold the tire edges and jiggle, wiggle, coerce, tug and jerk the tire as it's loose when you're trying to get the bead to seat.
Once you get the tire in a certain position, you can just feel it starting to blow up, where it seats and finally pops a few times as you work up the pressure to 40, 50, and 60 psi.
http://i.cubeupload.com/5RH8RC.jpg
Further proof that the silly 4-way tool is worthless is the fact that it doesn't have a pin for letting the air out of the valve to drop the pressure down from 60 psi back to 40 where it belongs.
Rummaging around in my compressor kit, I found this needle-valve which is normally used to inflate footballs and soccer balls, but which deflates the tire without sharp points like those that are on the silly and useless 4-way tool.
http://i.cubeupload.com/aS0xdG.jpg
It was at this point that I realized that the football/soccerball inflator handle can be used for the next tire to inflate the tire quickly without the schrader valve being in place, so I will try it this way on the next tire to see if it works.
(It may require a third hand to press the trigger, but I can probably wire the trigger pressed because both hands will be needed to coerce the tire into momentarily seating while the air is filling it up.)
http://i.cubeupload.com/DZJO2y.jpg
At this point it's time to make two checks of the valve stem.
Ensure the red (radial runout) dot is at the valve stem Ensure with a straight edge that the valve doesn't stick out past the rim
Since it was dark, I didn't bother looking for match mounting marks on the old rim, so, I simply lined up the red dot with the tire valve since the red dot indicates the tire's high point for radial runout and radial force variation, which takes precedence over the yellow dot which indicates the tire's light spot which would have been paired with the valve stem on the wheel which is the wheel's heavy spot had the red dot not existed.
http://i.cubeupload.com/1dxFGN.jpg
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On Wed, 14 Dec 2016 05:34:15 +0000 (UTC), Frank Baron
By George - when he stops to think he actually CAN figure things out!!!!!! From the questions origionally asked it appeared he could not find his ass with both hands - He has surprised me. My appologies - seriously. but I'd still be wary of using THAT tire changer on the expensive alloy rims without some more "modifications" You really surprised me Frank -- Kudos. I'm man enought o admit when I've been wrong.....

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On Wed, 14 Dec 2016 22:19:12 -0500, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca advised:

I used the tire changer on 60-series 16-inch alloy wheels today because I offered to fix a flat for a friend where I warned him it might be difficult.
This passenger tire was so easy, it made me look like a professional.
So, I think it's just that my testcase of the 75-series 108T sidewall Optimo tires is just a more difficult case (by far) than a normal passenger tire.
We didn't balance that alloy wheel because we didn't change the tire and when I put it on the static balancer, it was fine.
But I'm going to have to balance the five steel wheels of the Toyota.
Right now, I'm looking at what wheel weight style to buy, since it's a Toyota steel rim.
It seems from this PDF that the right type is the "P" type (whether PZU, PZ, PST, or PSTU doesn't really matter) but I'm double checking that assumption as we speak. http://www.perfectequipment.com/content/site/dateien/8625390811_pe_imagebroshure_sceen.pdf
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Frank Baron posted for all of us...
You missed something...

Lube new Schrader valve prior to next step

Lube the tire beads prior to the next two steps.

--
Tekkie

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On Fri, 16 Dec 2016 15:08:11 -0500, Tekkie? advised:

Good point. The dish detergent helped wonderfully.
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On Fri, 16 Dec 2016 20:51:18 +0000 (UTC), Frank Baron

Proper "vegatable soap" tire lube does not allow the tire to slip on the rim under accelleration or braking after it dries, unlike some normal "dish soaps" A proper bead lubricant like "RuGlyde" is most definitely recommended .
Using the wrong soap increases the likelihood you will need to re-balance the tire several times over it's lifespan.
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snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca posted for all of us...

+1
--
Tekkie

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On Sat, 17 Dec 2016 00:44:17 -0500, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca advised:

Thank you for your advice not to use the wrong soap, as the tire may slip on the rim, which would making all balancing off.
Here is the soap I used:
http://i.cubeupload.com/DJpG8X.jpg
I did wash it off afterward (as I had also painted the rims black).
Interestingly, when I gave the SUV back to the owner, she didn't even notice that the four rims went from silver to black!
Because of time constraints (it's not my car, it's that of a relative), I wasn't able to test drive at speed (no highway nearby and I only had the vehicle from about 10pm to dawn). So I told her to tell me if it vibrates on the highway.
I accidentally left the PSI at my test pressure of 45psi (instead of 32psi) but I don't think she'll even notice but I ask you if it matters?
Does it matter?
She drives like a little old lady, about 20 highway miles a day, and about 30 miles a day of mountain twisting single-lane but very steep (9% grade) roads.
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