You don't have a CLUE how I buy my tires or what "thought" goes into them - and I most certainly would NOT buy tires based primarily on price.
You are being a prick again - it is not becoming.
You snot-nosed little punk - You have not listened to a word I've said. I thought for a few minutes I may have misjudgesd you -to harshly. I take it back.
YOu are NOT willing to learn - and I doubt your level of automotive knowledge and experience will EVER approach that of any of they guys on this list - or particularly guys like myself who have done this professionally - for a living, for longer than you have been alive.
Which I, and others, have been TRYING to do for you for several weeks. You appear to be unteachable and unhelpable - or at least a total ingrate.
And EVEYTHING you put into that very fine piece is information you WERE given on this newsgroup.
I'm surprised you actually assimilated enough to figure out how to put it all together and get the job done. You are definitely not making yourself any friends - - -
Price "matching" is only good if they will BEAT the lowest price
And LEGALLY you are REQUIRED to submit the local tax on product you order in from outside the state if they do not have a business presence in your state. If they DO have a presence in your state, they are requireds to charge the tax applicable in your state. Whether this is enforced or not, I don't know.
There will always be someone who will sell at a lower price
No, respectfully - you need to know WHAT you are doing and WHY before the HOW makes any sense.
You still have not said what Toyota SUV- 4runner, Higlander, FJ Cruiser, older land cruiser, Rav4, Sequoia, or Venza???
The formula is: Caster (deg) = (180 / 3.1415) * [(camber1 - camber2) / (turnangle1 - turnangle2)]
Basically simplified to 57.3X(camber change/degrees of turn)
Turn the wheel in45 degrees. Measure camber. Turn out 45 degrees, read camber.. Subtract camber 1 from camber 2 - say the difference is
5 degrees.. 5 devided by 90 = .055, times57.3= 3.18 degrees of caster.
Without slip plates side loading can affect the camber measurements somewhat which also affects the caster calculation.
So yes, theoretically you CAN measure/calculate caster - but again accuracy is going to be crucial. Good enough to see if you are close - not accurate or repeatable enough, in most cases, to make an accurate fine adjustment. However, the Toyota truck-based SUV front ends are stout enough that unless you have really bashed it about or fooled withit, nothing is going to change unless something wears out ----- The turn-angle is critical to the calculation
You can use a sledge hammer or an axe if you like to put them on, and you can beat them off with a chisel, but the proper tool as always it much easier . And you asked "what tool do you use to remove the weights. I, and most mechanics, use a weight pliers - so I answered your question - didn't I???
Actually the REAL solution would be to make a tubular one out of 2 inch square tube - but welding in a plate will do the job
Welding plate like that with an axy-acetylene welder CAN be done, but it's not a job for beginners. If my only tool was the gas welder, I'd braze that part - not weld.
By the way - it's a CLEVIS pin.
The extra slop puts the bolt into bemding stress instead of just shear
-
Again, I'd stick weld that job - or if all I had was the torch, I'd braze it - and drill a few small holes and plug braze it too.
On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 01:06:53 -0500, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca advised:
What I mean is that 99 out of 100 people will tell you why *they* would NOT do their own tire changes, balance, and alignment.
There's *nothing* they can teach me since I already know everything they could possibly say (almost).
There are TONS of reasons *not* to do anything:
- why not to go to the moon
- why not to go to North Korea
- why not to sail around the world etc.
For anything that anyone wants to to, there will be 99 out of 100 people telling them why *they* would not do it.
But that's not helpful when someone tries to do it.
If I was trying to go to the moon, it's not helpful to tell me that there's no air on the moon. Or that the moon is far away.
Do you get my point?
a. If I want to change tires, what's helpful is advice on how to change tires using whatever tools I have at hand
b. If I want to balance tires, what's helpful is advice on how to balance them, using whatever is at hand and whatever can be bought easily
c. If I want to do my alignment at home, what's helpful is advice on how to do it.
What's not helpful are jokes and statements that I'm cheap or a litany of reasons why I should not do it (because I already know all those reasons because those reasons are why 99 out of 100 people don't do it themselves so any fool can come up with them).
I don't think anyone asked, or, if they did, I haven't seen it yet. It's a 4Runner. Pretty simple. It has 4 cams for caster and camber in the front (nothing in the rear).
It has tie rod ends for the toe.
That's it.
I was going to get some turntables (I think) so that I can do the 20 degree (10 to each side) turn angles. That was how I was gonna calculate caster.
This sounds like you know what you're doing because I'm on the Toyota forums and they suggested something similar. Right now the alignment is just in the planning stage, since the tires and balancing comes first.
I think slip plates are in my future.
The spec on the 4Runner is pretty close to 0 camber anyway, and the toe is really, effectively, 1/16th for each wheel to center line. I forget what the caster is (I can look it up easily but I'm not near my books) but I'm not worried about it just yet.
Right now I'm working on the wheels, and I'm reading all the catalogs for wheel weights from the major manufacturers.
Here is the wheel weight catalog for Plombco, for example:
On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 01:10:11 -0500, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca advised:
You are correct and I apologize for changing the rules mid thread. Yes, I did ask. And I now know what tool they use.
I do like to use good tools, like everyone, and I am not the type normally to use a hammer for everything, so I will "probably" get the wheel weight pliers.
I say probably because I may just use the stick-on weights for everything. I don't know yet. It's also just as likely that I'll use the P-type crimp-on weights for these steel wheels.
I'm looking at this catalog, for example, and what I "probably" should get is the following on page 185: A. Wheel weight pliers and hammer B. Wheel weight scraper C. Rim Gauge
On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 00:14:46 -0500, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca advised:
I'm actually nice to the people at all stores. They know me by name at the auto parts stores for example. And I am nice to the tire guys at Costco (they even gave me the black goop to put inside the tire we repaired today to cover over the patch since I couldnt' find it in the stores).
On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 00:20:56 -0500, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca advised:
I agree with that statement. Only that's not price "matching"; that's price "beating" which is a good thing.
Matching, as far as I can tell, is useless, unless (as I said) you get something hidden for free (like no tax or less time or no shipping or whatever).
That's debatable but I'm not a tax lawyer or accountant so I can't tell you if it is or not since interstate commerce is a tricky thing which is regulated federally and not by the states.
Suffice to say it's not enforced anyway, and, if it was, it would merely shove almost all commerce overseas where it couldn't be enforced.
If you are only going to static balance anyway, stock only the stik-on weights and apply them to the CENTER of the rim. That way you are not splitting weights and quite possibly making the dynamic balance worse. It is also the onlr economical way of having the weight you require for all situations. When "roughing" the balance plsce the weighy at the point you will be installing it (an inch or two in from the bead, on most of those rims) - it will take a wee bit more weight in there, but you won't throw them nearly as easily, being held in place by rotational force as well as the tape.
On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 00:02:27 -0500, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca advised:
I have no problem NOT asking Costco to mount other people's tires. I'm the guy mounting my own tires, so, I'm not gonna argue with Costco to mount them.
To me, the process is simple:
Buy the best tires at the lowest price
Have them shipped (preferably for free) to my house
Mount and balance them at the house
Like anyone, I've had issues with shipped goods, but, heck. A tire is a big rubber round thing. It isn't gonna break in shipping. It's not gonna get scratched. It's not gonna be the wrong size usually, or the wrong color.
So, as risk goes, sure, there is risk ... but not a lot of risk with tires.
Yup. I buy boxes of paper from Costco, and boxes of motor oil, and shop rags, and piles of batteries!
No. I didn't know about that. I started with "Price Club" which turned into Costco at some point. I remember Sams being around. But Costco is mostly for "people" it seems, although I do see people buying tons of bottled water and I think "can't they get it cheaper at a "real" wholesale place"?
Speaking of meat, I buy the $120 New York Strip and slice it myself (there's a bit of fat to be gotten rid of, but no bones). It's a great deal. I get about a dozen steaks out of a $120 hunk of beef.
On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 01:17:22 -0500, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca advised:
I understand, In fact, I thought I saw a video where the guy did exactly that. But, for me, for now, strapping in a block of wood will work, and, when I get the oxyacetylene setup, I can weld a plate or crossbars or whatever.
I won't be that good yet. The friend has a 220VAC arc welder he said he'd give me, for free though.
Oooooooh. Thank you! I didn't look it up, but my spellchecker kept bothering me so I capitalized it a few times, and the spellchecker shut up, so, I figured it was Clovis.
Thank you for correcting me. I am indebted to you because most people wouldn't bother on the Usenet for that but I, for one, appreciate the correction.
Thanks!
I'm not gonna be that good at welding.
But, one thing you bring up is that *any* bar will do for breaking the weld so I probably can just NOT use the red bar that comes with the tool.
Then I would only use the red bar for removing the already-broken bead from the rim and placing it back on.
It can be enforced there too. Customs agents can tighten up the border so tight a flea couldn't get through. If they think there is enough money to be had to make it worth while, and the state governments work alonf with the feds instead of being ignorant about everything, the Feds can enforce the state tax laws too. Everything coming in gets taxed according to it's destination - no exceptions - and both the states and the feds win - and Trump gets to "Make America Great Again"
On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 02:00:51 -0500, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca advised:
Clare, that's good advice.
The beauty of the stickon weights for home use is that they fit everything, and they don't need special tools, and they can be easily stocked in assorted sizes and they can be easily sliced in half if necessary, etc.
So, if stickon weights work for steel wheels, they should be given a chance to work. The flat areas of the rim are gonna be along the inside anyway, near to the center anyway, whereas the crimp-on weights would be along the outside edge.
I already have plenty of stickon weights because I picked them up at HF already.
Thanks for the encouragement to use them, as the P-type weights (which pretty much is what the Toyota steel wheels seem to use) would need to be obtained in all sorts of sizes and they wouldn't work for all wheels like the stickons can.
On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 02:43:07 -0500, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca advised:
I know economic history pretty well.
Two things specifically:
The power to tax involves the power to destroy, and,
There is always a "Black Market" which will spring up the moment those wonderfully efficient customs agents tighten up the border.
Hell, they build tunnels, for heavens sake, under the border between the US and Mexico just to slip drugs through past those wonderful customs agents.
Take just one example of what you're saying, which was when Jim Florio added a tax on new trucks newly registered in New Jersey. Guess what happened? (it's a fascinating story).
Basically you can't tax something without risking killing it. Taxes are like small doses of poison. Too much, and you kill the golden goose.
That's why there is no effective tax on things bought out of state. If they did make that tax effective, two things would happen: a. They'd kill what they taxed, and, b. A black market would spring up
On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 02:38:46 -0500, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca advised:
Yeah, I understand tire numbers probably better than most people do because I buy tires by the specs so that's *all* I base a tire purchase on (other than price, but without meeting the spec, the price doesn't matter).
The OEM tires are 102S (I put the S there even though it's the speed rarting because they go together). So a 108T is heavier duty and faster.
The funny thing is that the UTQG "Temperature" rating of the 108T tires is only B while the UTQG temperature rating of the 102S is A, where temperature is temperature but it's really mostly a function of speed, which is odd that it's a slower speed-rated tire but a hotter temperature rated tire.
Oddities exist in the specs.
Yeah. It's not lateral g forces but you know what? You got something better? I realize that UTQG is flawed but what are you gonna use without it?
The "reviews" are so terrible that it makes me sick to just read them. Only 1 out of 100 of the reviews is accurate to any degree and they don't generally test them on the same vehicle with the same driving conditions, so, even that 1 out of 100 that is accurate is for some other vehicle.
What's left?
Again. You got something better than the specs? If so, I'm all ears, but if you tell me you believe the bullshit advertising claims then don't bother. Or, if you believe the utterly useless reviews, then again, don't bother.
And don't say warranty either, because that's completely bogus. Name brand is also bogus because all tires are safe that are sold in the USA.
So, I buy by the spec. What does anyone have for choosing tires that is better than the specs?
What most people don't understand is that YOU, as an individual, rarely get to determine the set price of anything.
What I mean by that is that you don't pay the price that you are willing to pay so much as you pay the price that everyone else is willing to pay.
So, for example, if people are willing to stand outside an Apple store for hours in the rain just so that they can pay $800 for a cellphone, then you aren't going to get that cellphone for, say, $500 on that same day.
The price isn't set by what YOU are willing to pay; the price is set by what the *masses* are willing to pay. So what does *advertising* do? They influence the masses. Specifically, they inflate the perceived value of the product so that the masses are willing to pay more for that product.
Is it a better product? Maybe. Maybe not. But that's meaningless. It's marketing's job to raise what the *masses* think it is worth (like high octane gasoline). The one guy like you and me who know that our cars do better on the lower octane stuff they're designed for won't pay that premium price. But if we *wanted* that iPhone or that high octane gas, we don't pay what it's worth. We have to pay what the masses are willing to pay.
And, get this ... the masses are (fundamentally) stupid. SO the problem is that the price is set by the masses, who are stupid.
The masses wouldn't know quality if it hit them in the face. Just look at how many people pay extra for high-octane gasoline for a car designed for the low octane stuff or for gold trim on their iPhone. They don't get any better quality. They just jack up the price for the rest of us.
We just bought these four tires for either $58 or $58 each (I forget, I think I said 68 but I think it was really 58). I could have gotten *plenty* of tires at plenty of other prices, from that price to $150 each. Are they better tires? Some were (e.g., traction AA or treadwear 700 perhaps) but, in reality, I think we got a good deal of about $240 for four tires where the installation is free (yes, I know, the tools cost me so the installation will take two years to be free).
Do you see the huge flaw in your logic? I can't disagree with your words, but your words are sophistry because you don't *know* whether you have lateral traction in *any* tire.
I buy contintenals, for example, for my bike, and they cost a lot, but that's only because I know the tire intimately, and I like the feel of them. But for someone else, on some other bike? I wouldn't have a clue how they'd perform, and I'm not qualified to advise them anyway.
SO what are YOU going on if you were to say that your tires have greater lateral traction than my tires?
I'm not saying that yours do, or that yours don't. And I'm not saying that you said yours do.
All I'm saying is that you have no way of knowing what the lateral traction is unless you personally tested the tires, and if you did, then your personal tests don't apply to someone else who drives a different vehicle under different conditions.
So, my point is that if you have lateral traction specs, great. But you don't. And neither does anyone else.
The only thing you have are the specs. Which is why I buy by the specs.
Actually, let's just agree to disagree on how well I know tires.
Most people *think* they know a lot about tires, but all they know is what the marketing guys told them. That's bullshit. They know absolutely nothing about tires if what they know comes from marketing bullshit.
If you know the lateral g-force traction of your tires, just tell me what it is.
It's a simple number of Gs (less than one). Tell me. What is it?
Then if you give me a number, I'm gonna ask where you got it. Most people pull that number out of a very dark place.
I'm sure the tire manufacturer measured it but they don't give you those numbers. And they depend on a shitload of conditions anyway.
My only point is that measured numbers are GREAT. But nobody has them. Not typical consumers anyway.
What I know about tires is that there is a shitload of bullshit that people
*believe* they know about tires.
I also know that nobody has the specs they make believe they have (well, I'm talking consumers - I'm sure racers who pay $10K for a set of tires know a lot of tested parameters).
So, take this lateral g-force spec. What's the lateral g's (less than one) that your tires generate?
If you give me a number, I have to then ask where'd you get that number? That's my whole point.
Nobody has the numbers (not consumers, anyway). The only numbers the consumer has are the published specs.
I am old enough to know almost nothing can be trusted that isn't enforced by law and threat of punishment. Take the VW situation, where they gamed the system. The only thing stopping them is the huge fines that are going to result.
Without those huge fines, they'd still be telling us that VW diesels are zippy *and* fuel efficient.
You and I know tires well. I know that, for example, lateral G's are important. But where are you gonna get the numbers to compare consumer tires against?
My only point is that if we had the numbers for all the tires we are considering buying, then, sure, use those numbers.
But where are you gonna get those numbers?
C'mon. You can't expect me to believe that can you?
You know as well as I do that if those statements were actually true, we'd both be in heaven.
But, the sheer raw unfortunate fact is that, for a set of consumer tires, I'm not going to have access to those numbers for all the tires I'm considering, and, even if I did have those numbers, they're tremendously dependent on the test conditions, the vehicle, the way it's driven, and even the weather that day.
What's funny is that you're actually saying the exact same thing I'm saying, which is that you buy by the numbers.
The only difference is that you're intimating that you *have* far more numbers than I have (or anyone else has), and I'm asking you *where* you got them from.
If "I" had those numbers, I'd buy by those numbers too.
But I don't think any consumer has those numbers for the dozen or two dozen tires he's comparing when he makes his buying decision.
Again, you and I are essentially saying the same thing, which is that we buy tires by the performance metric numbers.
The only difference is that you're intimating you have a super secret stash of these performance numbers, and I'm asking you where you get them from.
Because if I had those numbers, I'd buy by those numbers too.
Actually, they do mean a lot. And so does yours.
A college degree, and especially higher level degrees *proves* that a person can do a shitload of things that are complex, and which takes months (at the very least) and years (in general) to accomplish, and, that they can do those complex tasks well enough that about 30 to 40 different professors (some of whom are assholes) have given them high enough marks to pass (and preferably better than that).
A guy who can't even garner a GED might be just as capable, but there's no proof of that.
Just like a tire might be capable of garnering 0.90Gs but without a reliable test report backing it up, there's no proof of that.
I disagree but that one is in the eye of the beholder.
For example, you suggested a $500 tire mounting machine, but the manufacturer warns that it shouldn't be used for passenger tires. Then you suggested shoring it up (which is fine) but how is that any different than shoring up the one I already have (which is intended for passenger tires).
So, we simply have a different attitude but that doesn't mean I blew you off.
Actually, there were only about three or four people who tried to help. The rest just trolled.
On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 08:52:24 +0000 (UTC), Frank Baron advised:
Just to give you an idea of what happened when Florio taxed trucks in New Jersey, you can read this one sentence:
Flori's truck tax "was meant to raise $44 million but failed to do more than shift truck sales to other states."
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Here is another sentence, before they repealed the tax: "The sales tax, which added thousands of dollars to the price of trucks, had threatened to drive the state's 1,500 truck dealers out of business, as buyers went to Pennsylvania and other states that have no such tax. "
"
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This article explains a bit more what happens when you tax a fluid item:
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"''This has the makings of a disaster,'' he said. ''There isn't going to be much here in the way of truck and parts sales. In addition, the truckers will simply set up small terminals across the borders in Delaware, Pennsylvania or New York, and the state will lose registration fees, which range from $600 to $800 a truck.''
Of course, the power to destroy works in reverse too: In 1977, New Jersey was the first state in the Northeast to exempt heavy trucks from the sales tax, Mr. Walton said, and in the four years it took for Pennsylvania, New York and most of New England to follow suit, the state's trucking industry boomed.
''We became the trucking hub for New York and Long Island,'' he said.
The only Northeast state that did not exempt heavy trucks from its sales tax was Connecticut, and the number of heavy-truck dealers in that state has dropped to seven from 42 in the last decade, Mr. Walton said. ''If we don't restore our exemption, we'll go the way of Connecticut,'' he said.
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