On Monday, June 16, 2014 4:25:57 PM UTC-4, Joe Biden wrote:
he got his scope leads reversed.
It's not magic, unless you don't understand electrical engineering
and prefer to remain ignorant.
The IEEE power systems engineer that presented this paper before
an IEEE conference of power systems engineers said exactly the same
thing. It could not be any clearer or more to the point:
"Which now brings into focus the reality that standard 120/240 secondary sy
stems are not single phase line to ground systems, instead they are three w
ire systems with two phases and one ground wires. Further, the standard 120
/240 secondary is different from the two phase primary system in that the s
econdary phases are separated by 180 degrees instead of three phases separa
ted by 120 degrees. What all of this means is that analysis software and me
thods must now deal with an electrical system requiring a different set of
algorithms than those used to model and analyze the primary system."
The IEEE is about as credible a reference as you can get. And the author
of that paper, which was published by the IEEE has many other peer reviewed
papers published by the IEEE. Of course, you don't even know what the IEEE
If you want more, from a tutorial from an electrical eqpt
On Fig 1. Note that one leg is labeled phase A, the other phase B.
"The phase of hot leg 2 (phase B) is in the opposite direction,
ie 180 degrees apart from the phase of hot leg 1 (phase A)".
They go on to describe the phase relationship and state:
"This indicates that the two 120 VAC voltages are 180 degrees out
An application note from another electrical eqpt manufacturer:
"The two legs, represented by Phase A and Phase B are 180 degrees
Since you want to drag this other discussion into this, it's worth
noting that Stormin's AC dispute and the phase discussion have some
important things in common. One is that in both cases, I can and have
answered every question posed, in detail
and explained it with physics. The other side can't explain
anything and resorts to 3 word, partial sentences that don't clarify,
but just evade or deflect. In the case of phase,
I asked a dozen times for others to give a definition of phase, which is
certainly a reasonable expectation. If you're going to debate it, then
you should be able to give your definition. I got not one answer from
the other side.
And just like in the discussion of phase, those taking cheap shots,
bring nothing, no references, no science, nada to the discussion.
And as I said before, from your response, it appears that you didn't even u
nderstand what Stormin said. Here is what you posted:
"Stormy, you're correct! If the system refrigerant is low, the low side pr
essure could easily drop to atmospheric pressure when the compressor turns
That is *not* what Stormin said and not what is being disputed.
So, here's your chance to finally go on the record and tell us
what you think. Here is what Stormin said:
"I returned a couple days later, and put a low
side gage on. With the compressor running, the
gage read about 8 inches mercury. If it was a
low side leak, it would have read zero. "
Do you agree that with a small leak, that the fact it read
8 inches instead of zero, indicates that the leak is on
the high side?
And why do you have to hide behind multiple aliases? I think we all
On 6/13/2014 11:06 AM, firstname.lastname@example.org wrote:
agree with the others.
will leak the same high side or low side.
will be low because the charge is Low but the leak
itself will not effect the pressure if it is small
so there will be no difference if the leak was on
the high side or low side.
Here is a chance for me to learn from you. So, tell
me why (as with others) you believe that a low side
leak of a central AC system on a house would not result
in zero PSI on the low side while the system is running?
I may very possibly be mistaken, and here is my chance
Stormy, you're correct! If the system refrigerant is low, the low side pressure could easily drop to atmospheric pressure when the compressor turns on.
You have to remember that there are some numbnutz here that think that a center-tap transformer can convert single phase into 2-phase, all because they got their oscilloscope leads mixed up..
On Saturday, June 14, 2014 8:40:36 AM UTC-4, Willis Carrier wrote:
But that isn't what Stormin is claiming. He's claiming that a low side
pressure of zero while it's running means that the small leak is on the
And obviously you couldn't understand that thread either, because I provided
plenty of cites including the IEEE and electrical eqpt manufacturers that fully
agreed with my position. Just as ignorant about electricity as HVAC. Good grief.
On Sat, 14 Jun 2014 08:40:36 -0400, Willis Carrier
But that will happen even if the refrigerant leak was a slow leak on
the high side. An OPEN low side will give a 0psi reading, obviously.
As woll a grosly undercharged system. If you recharge a system with a
slow low side leak, you will NOT get a zero reading.
On Sat, 14 Jun 2014 13:28:14 -0400, Stormin Mormon
And eventually everyone on this newsgroup MIGHTagree with Stormy.
The point is, when you are doing a test on a functioning system you
can NOT assume there is no leak on the low side because you do not get
a zero reading on the low side, and you cannot assume the high side is
tight just because you do not get a below zero reading on the low
I've worked on numerous systems that definitely had leaks, because
they had been recharged several times over the last year, that had
perfectly acceptable pressures when I tested them. At some point in
the future, when the freon had all leaked out, there would come a time
when the low side read zero, and even below - but I would not depend
on those readings to tell me where the leak was, knowing it was one of
those nasty hard-to-find "seepers".that even an utrasonic leak
detector can't reliably detect. You just put in dye and run it for a
while then lookk for the glow, or look for oily spots where oil should
not be (the most reliable indicator of a leak in many cases)
On Saturday, June 14, 2014 9:02:49 PM UTC-4, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Maybe not exactly that, but you did say that the pressure on the low
side can be used to determine whether a small leak is on the high or
low side. That is the point of disagreement.
Stormin: "Saturday June 7, I went out and put the gages on.
The low side was six inches mercury below atmospheric.
This means the refrigerant leaked out, and it's a
high pressure side leak."
Mark: "even if it was a very slow leak?"
Stormin: "Yes, even if. "
"I've found low side leaks end up being zero,
low side, while the compressor is running."
Clare, Mark and I obviously agree that whether a small leak is
on the high pressure side or the low pressure side, it will result
in the same readings while the system is running. Over days or weeks,
some of the refrigerant leaks out. It leaks out whether the leak is
on the high side or the low side, because with the system off, the pressure
is equal. When the system is running, sure, the fact that it has less
refrigerant effects the pressure readings. But the tiny leak has no
different observable effect on those readings whether the leak is on the
high or low side. You can't tell from the pressure reading on the low side whether the small leak is on the high side or the low side. That is what
you claimed. If it's possible, then just explain the physics.
Of course Trader's right. Then again, look who he's arguing with. Frankly
I'd rather go outside and try to teach a fencepost quantum physics. The
results might end up being the same. But it's a free country and if Trader
wants to try to educate the chronically uninformed, that's his right.
"Summerized" might be the typo of the month since the discussion is
concerning air conditioners. (-:
On Mon, 16 Jun 2014 07:43:49 -0400, Stormin Mormon
This might be true if you leave the guageset on and keep the
compressor running long enough, but it is foolishness, and very hard
on the compressor, to run the empty and open system that long - after
all, with no refrigerant, there is no circulation of the lubricant in
the system. If it is a low side leak you will also be drawing in
moisture from the atmosphere. You might actually be ablee to do it on
a commercial refrigerationsystem, but low pressure cut-off switches on
most A/C systems prevent the system from running when empty - for good
Let's just say I'm glad you are not my A/C tech.
On 6/16/2014 8:17 AM, email@example.com wrote:
Did you miss the part where I wrote that I came back a
couple days later? As in "been out of town for several
days". The HO didn't know one way or the other, and so
ran the system but said it didn't cool very well.
The only part of the system that needs lubrication is the
compressor, and that has plenty of oil, even with no
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