OT Win7 updates

Linux.

Reply to
Will
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Uh, when I play a game on my PC, I am playing a game. When I watch TV, I am watching TV. My automobile is an automobile. Nothing you say can change those perceptions of mine.

But my PC does. So there.

That's fine. But not games designed using DX 12.

Of course I would.

That's some "spying" that gets claimed in a EULA. Some spying indeed. Besides, I've turned most of it off.

That's been proven scientifically. Now show some scientific proof that Win 10 is "spying" on me. I'll join in the resulting class action suit against MS.

snip

That's too bad for you. Us lemmings are quite happy with OS advances. But I do miss the Swedish and German bakeries that once peppered my area.

Of course not. I'm a PC gamer.

You like making up highly improbable scenarios, but in any case I'd just adjust to the reality. Sadly, I'm not the boss of the world.

Rings a bell, but no.

Yeah, would have been fine to ignore the ability of many people to pay for the Betamax. JVC didn't think so.

This lemming is content with the outcome.

Reply to
Vic Smith

Is Apple / Mac still a force in the marketplace?

Reply to
Stormin Mormon

It's bullshit by an XP user who has no experience with Win 10. I've been using Win 10 since it was released. Once I turned the data collection off, it was no longer "spying" on me. I don't see any ads. Never. I had no problem installing my old apps. I've never rented anything, nor been asked to. Here's your alternative: Linux.

Reply to
Vic Smith

Free ! It's called GWX control panel .

Reply to
Terry Coombs

HOW? Would you examine the paging algorithm to notice that it was using a different pageout criteria than your previous OS? Or, that the network stack prioritized traffic differently? Or, that the caching policy was different?

Turn off the monitor. Here's a logic analyzer. There are 5 machines in front of you, each running a different version of Windows. Your job is to tell which version is running on which machine. Have at it.

[I.e., I can easily change the "look and feel" of an OS to make it PRETEND to be anything. But, the OS itself isn't changed.]

No, you *think* you've turned it off.

Have you got a packet sniffer on your internet connection? Can you explain each packet that leaves -- or enters -- your machine? Or, are you just assuming that because you tweaked some registry setting that you THINK the spying has been turned off?

You don't have any grounds to sue! You adopted the terms of the EULA by opting to install and use W10. Your rights were forfeit as of that moment.

"Privacy; Consent to Use of Data. Your privacy is important to us. Some of the software features send or receive information when using those features. Many [BUT NOT ALL!] of these features can be switched off in the user interface, or you can CHOOSE NOT TO USE THEM. By accepting this agreement and using the software YOU AGREE THAT MICROSOFT MAY COLLECT, USE AND DISCLOSE THE INFORMATION as described in the Microsoft Privacy Statement (aka.ms/privacy), and as may be described in the user interface associated with the software features."

(emphasis mine)

"Downgrade Rights. If you acquired a device from a manufacturer or installer with a Professional version of Windows preinstalled on it, you may use either a Windows 8.1 Pro or Windows 7 Professional version, but ONLY FOR SO LONG AS MICROSOFT PROVIDES SUPPORT FOR THAT EARLIER VERSION as set forth in (aka.ms/windowslifecycle). This agreement applies to your use of the earlier versions. If the earlier version includes different components, any terms for those components in the agreement that comes with the earlier version apply to your use of such components. Neither the manufacturer or installer, nor Microsoft, is obligated to supply earlier versions to you. You must obtain the earlier version separately, for which you may be charged a fee. At any time, you may replace an earlier version with the version you originally acquired."

I.e., you can't legally use 7 or 8 after MS stops supporting them!

I suspect you won't be, eventually. Then, *you* won't have a choice (whereas those of us who know better will have kept an option available for ourselves). Your employer won't care that you've lost some freedom or capability; and surely won't want to reeducate all of his employees to use that "other option".

Have you looked carefully at MS's track record with products? Seen how willing they are to abandon markets that don't pan out in their eyes?

"Improbable" is only so until it becomes *reality*. Then, you'll be scurrying to find some antique computer that can still run your games. Or, you'll discard them. And grumble about the lemmings that have rendered your old "system" unsupportable.

There is nothing inherently more expensive in the design of a betamax VCR than was the case for VHS. Sony just overplayed their hand by holding the technology close to their chest.

Motorola took the opposite approach with the introduction of the MC68000 (contemporary with the 8086) -- sharing the design with 6 "second source" vendors as a way to secure market. And, lost the IBM PC design to Intel.

Apple's old machines were closed systems. You want a Mac? You buy from Apple.

Amusingly, Apple also abandoned the MC68k with their move to OS/X. And, has lost their stranglehold on the hardware (google "Hackintosh")

I.e., there's no guarantee that a particular strategy will result in success.

If you like paying *more* for less, more power to you! Some of us are a bit more concerned with "value" -- and take other actions to avoid the "Microsoft Tax".

Reply to
Don Y
[snip]

Smoking doesn't NEED to cause cancer. It's still a stinking fire hazard that interferes with your breathing.

[snip]
Reply to
Sam E

I mentioned ads in the formerly free games but otherwise no problems with Win 10. Easy to turn off their tracking.

Reply to
Frank

I see friends moving to Apple every week! None of them have complained that they've "lost something" (capability).

There's nothing wrong with continuing to use an older version of Windows -- *if* you don't neeed to chase the latest version of a particular application!

I.e., do you really need Office 2016? Is there something that Office 4.2 can't do for which you need the newer version? [I'll be upgrading SWMBO's machine to XP from W2KS in the next few weeks. Her biggest prerequisite was that it continue to run the OLD version of Office that she has installed -- else she'll have to "fix" her various databases, etc.]

You can send mail with the same software that ran under older versions of windows (IMAP support might be sketchy). And, browse the internet. None of these things really "needs" Windows -- you could just as easily be using any other OS.

If you're more technologically inclined, you can move to one of the Eunices (free or otherwise). The OS is just a framework to support applications. What you should be asking yourself is which *applications* you need/want. Then, *where* those will run.

E.g., I can run FrameMaker (a desktop publishing app) under Windows, NeXTSTEP, AIX, Solaris, etc. (depending on which version I want). OTOH, OrCAD has a much smaller universe :<

OTOH, the software development tools that I use run best on NON-windows machines as they were developed long before Windows had matured enough to support their level of complexity.

For folks who just send mail, browse the web and read USENET, the OS is inconsequential (assuming it is ONLY doing what you've asked of it and not "helping it's parent company" at your expense.)

Reply to
Don Y

And you know this *how*?? If you're connected to the internet and don't have a separate piece of hardware NOT CONTROLLED BY MS then you're just *hoping*.

Hint: I can sneak data through damn near any "physical firewall" you can install between your machine and the outside world. And, unless you can examine the source code that is doing this, you'd be hard pressed to notice it ("Oh, I've got Microsoft blocked on my firewall...")

And you KNOW that your searches are never influenced by information that has been gleaned from the observations of your behavior that you THINK were turned off?

And you fully expect this behavior to continue for the indefinite future? Because MS *guaranteed* you that you'd always be able to turn off ALL tracking? (you can point out that clause in the EULA, right? As this is the CONTRACT that you accepted with MS)

So, you've turned off future updates (cuz MS can change the software running on your machine with any of those updates -- including software that effectively ignores all those registry changes that you made to disable the tracking). And, hope the installed software doesn't "sleep" waiting to enable some feature at a future date that *it* has decided is appropriate (and, you know this, how?)

[Set up a machine, not connected to the internet. Use it for a few days/weeks/months. Plug in a network cable and it "suddenly" suggests you need to turn on Updates! Gee, why didn't it do that many days earlier??]

Does your old scanner, printer, FAX modem, etc. work? What about the drivers for that special mouse? Or, wireless keyboard? Any features disappear in the process? Is that four-headed video card still supported?

Is there some reason XP doesn't work? SWMBO runs W2KS without any problems. (OhMiGosh!)

Or, OS/X?

Or any of the *BSD OS's (Linux is technically just a kernel; of very little use without the accompanying distro)?

The OS isn't the issue. The *applications* are the issue.

Reply to
Don Y

| It's bullshit by an XP user who has no experience with Win 10.

I have used Win10. In fact, I recently spent some time finding Internet Explorer on my brother's new computer. He couldn't find it, because MS wants you to use Edge. It turned out that IE was in Program Files, but there was no link on the Start Menu.

| I've been using Win 10 since it was released. | Once I turned the data collection off, it was no longer "spying" | on me.

Not true. But I'm not going to force you to hear what you don't want to know. The information is out there for anyone who wants to know.

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| I don't see any ads. Never.

Be patient. To some extent much of the general design is ads. For instance, pushing people to get a Microsoft ID and showing services or "suggestions" on the Start Menu. More direct ads are undoubtedly planned. They're making no secret of their plan to provide Windows as a service. If you don't pay for it then how else are they going to get paid but through ads and selling your private data?

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| I had no problem installing my old apps.

Most older software should run on Win10. That's a good aspect. Microsoft have always been good about backward compatibility because that's important to business. Businesses write in-house software with Microsoft tools and they won't update Windows if their software breaks.

I write software with Visual Studio 6, from 1998, and it runs fine on all Windows versions.

| I've never rented anything, nor been asked to.

Do you know about Office 365? Photoshop? Adobe's Photoshop and the rest of their design "suite" can no longer be purchased. The only option is rental. Both Office 365 and Photoshop still install locally. They're too complex to really be online services. But they're set up to appear to be online services.

What I was writing about is the general trend. Windows 10 is a dramatic, almost violent transition toward software-as-a-service. But it's only one step in a gradual process that's been going on for years. Product activation, restrictions on access and control of files, telemetry.... those are all part of the process. They're not going to lock you out tomorrow, but you're already locked out a great deal more than you were on XP.

In 1999 Microsoft was caught checking the Registry for personal info when people logged onto Windows Update. There was outrage. Microsoft promised to stop. With Windows 10 Microsoft does not even allow you to control Windows Update and you can't control the system calling home. Windows 10 will be whatever they decide it is. If they decide you'll have ads on the Desktop next year then that's what you'll have. It's not your choice. And you agreed to it.

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If you like Win10 that's fine, but you shouldn't be reassuring other people about a topic you haven't informed yourself about.

Reply to
Mayayana

Yeah, that's the mantra. Linux, whatever that is today, can easily do 90% of what I spend my computer time doing right out of the box. It's the other 10% that's the deal breaker. Having the option to do whatever you want with the open-source system is small comfort to joe average who has neither the skill nor desire to delve below the surface. Once you get beyond the browser, the linux-based desktop computing platform is a minefield for joe average. The developers designed it that way and are PROUD of it.

Unless the mindset of the developers changes materially, linux will never be a viable alternative to windows on the desktop of the average user. Ninety-nine and a half just won't do.

Reply to
mike

Exactly. E.g., I could replace MOST of this machine with a FOSS OS and cherry-picked applications. Of course, tagging my MP3's would require finding a suitable FOSS MP3 tagger; viewing my PDF's (with embedded animations) would be a challenge. And, chase down yet another tool to manipulate ISO's.

Then, hope they play well together!

Yes, but that's also true of most Windows users. There are lots of little (and BIG!) tweaks you can do to a Windows system to change (improve?) the user experience or overall performance. But, most folks live with things out-of-the-box ... never even concerned that things could be "different".

(Let them change their wallpaper and they're thrilled!)

I think there has been some effort in some of the distros to provide a genuine "desktop" (so you're not dealing with a text console *or* a generic X Windows environment with xterms). And, some effort to get Open/Libre Office in shape to at least write up a simple memorandum.

Hooking up printers? Modifying ACL's? Sharing filesystems? things get murky pretty quickly.

The developers are obsessed with gadgetry and "performance". As if the user can really notice that the disk I/O subsystem is 2% (or 20%!) faster than it was in last WEEK's release!

This is somewhat understandable; they aren't "marketers" but, rather, developers/engineers. If it does what THEY want/need, they are happy! And, its always more fun to tinker with some new idea than it is to nail down every last bug in the old BORING software before putting it behind you.

In Linux's defense (and by that, I mean in the defense of the various Linux-based distributions), they are moving more in that direction than many of the other FOSS OS's. (I think FreeBSD is now headed in that direction as well).

A big part of the problem is that efforts are fractured; too many groups thinking THEY have *the* "solution" -- so none of them have a COMPLETE solution.

Reply to
Don Y

Yep, you pick a distro based on which has the least missing stuff for your needs. Then you go on a scavenger hunt to try to find the missing pieces. Then you just give up on the rest...like printer features, mouse capabilities beyond point and click, camera specialties, basically all the reasons you selected that hardware in the first place. Installation statistics suggest that most of us just give up in frustration, turn on a windows machine and just get on with life. I've got a dozen or more disks with desktop linux installed just waiting for the day that I can wipe them and install a distro that just works...AKA windows alternative.

There's plenty of wasted manpower to produce a distro that contains the BEST of all the distros in ONE place and polish the edges with more/better GUI configuration. ONE baseline distro. ONE COMPLETE repository with EVERYTHING compatible with everything else. Standards, consistency, managed evolution with no loss of freedom for anyone.

You want a new distro, just write an install script against that repository and you're done. If you screwed it up, just patch the script. All the bugfixers are working on the same bugs in the same place for the benefit of all.

Build it. Give vendors a STABLE target with some possibility of PROFIT...give desktop linux a legal entity with the ability to enter into binding contracts...create a BRAND...and the for-profit hardware and software vendors will come.

Linux has had many opportunities to take the desktop from MS. ME, Vista, 8 and now windows 10 just to name a few. They just don't want it. Taking responsibility is not nearly as much fun as futzing with your hobby on your own terms.

Reply to
mike

| Installation statistics suggest that | most of us just give up in frustration, turn on a windows machine | and just get on with life. I've got a dozen or more disks with | desktop linux installed just waiting for the day that I can | wipe them and install a distro that just works...AKA windows | alternative. |

I've done something similar. I started with Red Hat 4, in 1999 I think. After spending weeks learning how to set up and use the system, I finally got reasonably comfortable with it. I felt like a bit of a wizard of esoterica. Then I was faced with one glaring problem: Functionality. There was no software and I still hadn't managed to get online with it.

Over the years I tried Mandrake, then Mandriva, then Suse. I actually have Suse 12 installed now. I've never really used it. And each version is only supported for

12 months. I've also repeatedly tried GIMP. That, too, is never quite fully baked after 20+ years in development.

Over the years Linux has also developed problems in the other direction. On the one hand, one needs to dig around in /etc config files, which are typically undocumented, in order to set up many things. On the other hand, the half-hearted attempt to accomodate normal users has resulted in excessive security. It took me a long time to figure out that root was no longer root and that I needed to perform special incantations to get control of the OS. (Apparently they stole that irritating design idea from Microsoft.)

The last time I thought seriously about Linux was a few years back when the WINE people came into Windows programming newsgroups looking for volunteers to cooperate over porting Windows software. I thought that sounded interesting. But the WINErs didn't want to cooperate. They were resistant to even providing guidance about how to best optimize and choose API calls in order to make WINE work. They just wanted me to be an official bug tracker for my software, while they tried to make it work. The whole thing had a strange, paramilitary feel to it. I was intended to be a private in some sort of Linux Boy Scouts and take orders from my commanding officer. When I tried to figure it out for myself I discovered that the WINE API was a mish mash of correlate functions implemented in non-correlating libraries. (One function from shell32 might be in one lib, while another was in a different lib, 3 others were nowhere to be found, and several were *somewhere*, but not stable enough to use.) So it was nearly impossible to figure out which API functions could be used dependably. Even the little bit I was able to figure out was a chore. The documentation came with instructions for "compiling" it to make it readable! Over 20+ years of WINE development, the WINErs have made no effort at all to provide tools or docs for Windows programmers.Too many of the Linux people are the type who can't use a coffee press but like to customize the functionality of their TV remote while they're eating their breakfast, of Starbucks kiddie coffee and a candy bar.

The little problems with Linux are an endless list. That's why, when people recommend Linux, it's almost never a serious recommendation with tips and advice. It's a one-word wisecrack: "Linux".

Reply to
Mayayana

Far superior? Well, no. It was slightly better, but not enough to matter to most consumers given the price delta. Imagine that. Sony also kept it proprietary, while VHS was multi-sourced.

It wasn't a dog of a processor in it's day. And the IBM PC did not use the 8086, it was the 8 bit bus version, the 8088. The 8086 went into and was used in all kinds of other applications too, making it one of the most successful processors of all time.

Yeah, you could run a true multitasking OS with paged memory management on processors that were contemporary with the 8086, provided that you're talking about an IBM 360, DEC VAX or similar that cost $100K to $1 mil back then and filled a closet or room. There was no contemporary microprocessor that was capable of running a page memory management system, because they did not have memory management period. And the 386 memory management and protection was as elegant and every bit as robust as that on a mainframe. A considerable feat, given that it had to also be 100% backward compatible with 8086 code. It's the same memory management and protection that's in all of today's Intel processors.

The rest of your nonsensical rant against OS improvement is just as nuts too.

What total BS. No one was forced to buy a PC. They were free to continue to buy mainframes, minicomputers. Manufacturers continued to develop those and ignore the PC, to their ultimate peril not long after. They thought like you: We know what a computer is and how people must use it. You have to use it like we say, buy it from us. They probably eschewed OS advancement like you too.

Reply to
trader_4

Mouse capabilities? You mean like the ability to highlight text and paste it with a middle mouse click rather than Ctrl-C Ctrl-V? I switch between Windows and Linux at work and that feature, along with the lack of built in multiple desktops is the one I miss in Windows.

Windows has improved. I remember when you had to diddle with an undocumented Registry setting just to get tab completion on the command line.

Reply to
rbowman

Yeah, you need a whole grimoire of incantations to figure out 'sudo'. My favorite was a SUSE distro where if you were root the background changed to a red field with black bombs.

Reply to
rbowman

You're absolutely insane. One of the complaints from people is that the look and feel of Win 10 is different from Win 7. Even a moron that installed it accidentally would immediately notice that it's different.

You MSFT bashers really are something else.

Yes, what an abysmal track record of failure over 3 decades. Imagine that, a company dropping things that people don't want, that don't work out, and devoting their resources to the successful areas. What a radical business strategy!

More nonsense. I've moved up from the initial version of Windows on my PC to Win 7 today. Not a single program or game that I was using was ever an issue.

IDK about manufacturing cost advantage or disadvantage, but the sole sourced Sony Betamax machines cost more and consumers were reluctant to pay it when the picture on their simple TVs looked the same to them.

You have that wrong too. The original Apple machines were cloned and available from other sources. Apple even licensed other manufacturers to make the Mac, until they later changed strategy. It's today's Apple PCs that are only available from Apple. And you have a closed system confused with a sole sourced product.

Reply to
trader_4

Interesting way of putting it! ;-)

Yes. In my case, (running NetBSD), I install the "pkgsrc" collection which provides a mechanism for me to build the programs that I want, the *way* I want them built.

[Most folks would opt for the prebuilt varieties but I like to tweek mine to suit *my* needs -- not the needs that some faceless developer thought would be important. Additionally, I want to *watch* the build process to be sure there are NO errors or serious warnings -- that the faceless developer may have glossed over. This is necessary because the sources may have been written with a particular build environment in mind that is different from the current one!]

But, I tend to want very few things that aren't part of the "stock" system -- maybe a few little tools to make using the window environment a bit easier (but *no* desktop, "office suite", etc.). The "most involved" application that I use would be PostgreSQL (a relational database program) and the folks who maintain it are *really* professional and treat it almost as a *job*!

Yes. You're "stuck" with whatever some other developer happened to have on hand and opted to "make work". And, only as well *as* he made it work! I.e., often, certain features are unsupported. Perhaps some of those extra buttons, or maybe the ability to DYNAMICALLY vary the sensitivity with a control ON the mouse (instead of having to open some "control panel" to do so)

In my case, I only talk to other computers, storage devices and generic printers (e.g., laserjets). All things that I long ago sorted out how to

*make* work -- and I just keep carrying those configuration files forward each time I "upgrade" the OS.

Anything "interesting", here, is connected to a Windows machine. This is because the folks who sold those things wanted to target the largest possible audience! Many of them I *could* make work (or write a driver/filter if that was needed) but the APPLICATIONS for which they are useful are missing -- so, what's the point? (e.g., I could write an interface for my motion controller; but where's the 3D CAD program to take advantage of that to manipulate 3D models in real time?)

Again, you have to approach the problem from the top, down:

You make a list of the capabilities that you want (i.e., to write letters, balance checkbook, design microwave cavities, etc.)

Then, you list the possible applications that can provide each of those capabilities.

Then, list the operating systems that will support each of those applications.

Then, try to find the sweet spot that supports the greatest number of the most valuable applications -- expecting to NOT have some of the things that you "want".

If your best case isn't good enough, then you can't pursue that OS!

[Note this ignores issues like *cost*!]

In my case, I have a Windows machine that hosts all of my publishing tools and related peripherals. Another Windows machine for my EDA tools (and THOSE peripherals). And a third for my multimedia authoring tools.

*This* (Windows) machine handles email/WWW.

All of my software development and testing is done on Solaris/SPARC machines (especially helpful as it uses a different byte ordering so I can stress some of the portability issues in my code) and NetBSD machines (Intel/AMD based). The Windows tools are just not generic enough to write portable code.

No. All of the pieces were developed independently of each other. They weren't designed to "play nice" together but, rather, just to address some particular need.

Every program has a different set of "command line options". Each has its own unique "configuration file format". They can't even agree on some of the "basics" in all of these things!

E.g., most programs allow whitespace in configuration files. Many treat spaces and tabs as whitespace; some will include newlines, as well! Others will ONLY accept tabs. Or spaces. Some will allow you to inject comments into the configuration file by preceding the comment with a semicolon. Others, a "hash # mark". Still others, an exclamation point! Some recognize C or C++ style "comments". And, virtually all of them will complain if you try to insert a "comment" in a form that is not supported. So, how can you come up with a common "configuration interface" (dialog boxes?) if the files that it must manipulate have such varied formats/syntax?

[Ans: you have to start over from scratch and come up with a consistent way of addressing *all* such configuration information. Then, back port this into all of those existing programs -- replacing the code they have written to parse their individual configuration files with some code that knows how to deal with this new "universal form"]

But folks take different approaches to any particular problem. E.g., the Internet Super Daemon (inetd) is implemented differently in the Linux world vs. the *BSD world. Some implementations of some tools might have bugs that have been fixed in others. A lot of effort goes into making sure a particular set of libraries OR another, different, set of libraries can be used to support the implementation. And, address architectures that have different byte orderings, structure packing rules, floating point formats, etc.

Windows sidesteps these problems -- until recently, it was a 32b environment running on Intel! (the sources for NetBSD run on some ~60 hardware platforms across 15 different processor architectures, "out of the box"!)

One of Linux's problems is they change the kernel too often. It would be like saying your application requires Windows 7.20336 (and the various other things that accompany that). A vendor doesn't want to be a flea on the dail of a dog that can't stop wagging! The *vendor's* costs skyrocket!

But, the Linux folks have this mantra about always wanting to tweek every little thing -- endlessly. If it was a car, you'd ALWAYS be "in the shop". AND, they'd be EXCITED to tell you about how GREAT this latest modification is going to be! "You'll LOVE it!"

("But, I just want to go to buy my groceries; I don't care if the turbocharger now gets an extra 0.3 MPG for the same output!")

Exactly. You NEVER have to *produce*! "Shoot the Engineer"

To be fair, imagine creating a (ham) transceiver IN YOUR SPARE TIME (not "compensated" financially). How much effort would you put into a nice case, fancy knobs/dials, a detailed manual, ease of use, a consistent interface with the "other" ham kit hobbyists are producing (power switch located in the same general location, power indicator a particular shade of red, inputs on the left, outputs on the right, etc.), etc.?

Or, would you just opt for an expedient -- something that YOU (and folks like you with whom you'll share the plans) can have up and running later this week?

When someone following after you had problems recreating your work, would you immediately slip into technical jargon (after all, they SHOULD know this stuff if they're aiming to build a rig!)? Or, would you adjust your comments to their actual skill level -- only to discover they don't even know to plug in the soldering iron?

Would you then monitor comments others had about your design (parts not derated aggressively enough) and tweak the design to reflect those improvements? For the next few months? Few years?? Decade??? (some pieces of software ARE that old!) Or, would you much rather move on to that new automatic keyer you've been thinking about designing? After all, this was just a hobby project in YOUR mind...

Reply to
Don Y

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