It actually started with cars rolling away when the shifters were either bumped or not fully engaged in park - The solution was to make it impossible to take out they key if not fully engaged (or at least that was the theory)
To me putting it in park, setting the parking brake, removing the key, and getting out or the car (HOLD the key while closing the door) are parts of the SAME action. Is becomes next to impossible to do one without the others.
There was one time I had to (because of a dead battery), and it was difficult to get out of the car while it was still running.
BTW, that's the battery I got replaced free less than a month before the "free replacement" ran out.
Prior to writing this post, I went outside and verified the following...
The 92 import I've acquired lets me turn it off in park, neutral, drive, or reverse and remove the key. The ignition switch as well as the key I've got for it appear to be factory, without anything wrong with either of them...The shifter isn't on the column, it's in the center console. I suspect that makes the difference.
No, the shift in my Toyota is in the console and you can't remove the key unless it's in park, nor can you start the engine unless you're on the brake. The previous Toyota was a manual and iirc you could remove the key in any position.
I'm just telling you what my 92 SAAB 9000S lets me do. Now, it will not engage the solenoid if I'm not in park or neutral. However, I'm free to insert/remove the key and shut it down if it's already running in any gear. It just won't let me try to start it if it's not in park or neutral. There's nothing on the electrical schematic I have for the car to force it to hold the key, and, as far as I can tell, nothing in the diagrams I've got on the switching assembly itself, either. It seems to be a solid ignition switch, not loose or anything, so... this particular car seems to lack the ability to keep my key until I put it in park. I don't have to be on the brakes to start it, either, but.. I've learned from personal experience that if I'm not on the brakes and I shift into drive, it's going to move, on it's own without me touching the gas. It doesn't just sit and idle if it's in forward or reverse. It pulls in drive and backs up in reverse on it's own, as soon as I let off the brakes. Very nice for a stop sign at the top of a hill. No roll back effect. It just pulls itself forward while it's 'idling' at 1000 on the tach. None of my other rides do this, but, this one does.
It is *designed* to be like that!
"A torque converter works much like two fans facing one another, one running (the engine), one not (the trans.). Even at low speeds (idle), the running fan still has enough airflow to turn the other. Hence, even at idle, the engine is able to turn the trans ......"
THIS one is set up correctly! :-)
Many cars no longer have a key. Now people park them in the garage under the bedroom and leave them running. A few people have been killed from it.
Are you shifting into drive from P or N? Not sure when it became effective but it is required to press the brake to get out of Park. I thought it was in the 80's but not sure. This has been revised and has many date but covers it
49 CFR 571.102 - STANDARD NO. 102;
Perhaps not. The ideal setup is where the idle speed is low enough that the car BARELY creaps when put in gear. just going off-idle should make the vehicle start to move either forward or back depending on what position the shifter is in.
I don't disagree.
There SHOULD be some creep! ;-)
With the idle properly adjusted on older vehicles, virtually no creep on a level surface. Today's computer controlled engines don't let you adjust idle - but fully warmed up at idle my Taurus just BARELY creaps when left idling in gear. On any kind of uphill grade it will roll back when idling in gear (it will roll back my driveway - roughly a 4 inch in 12 feet slope at the top)
I should have been more specific. It doesn't creep and then stop/hold in place waiting for me to give it a little on the gas pedal to continue rolling. like the other automatics I have will; which is what I'm used to. I mean, it acts like i'm giving it a little gas to move.
Not quite enough to do 5mph mind you, but, enough to move and have power while doing so. I have complete schematics to every piece of the car, via alldata/mitchell and a complete electrical diagram I acquired from a SAAB dealership in partial trade for some computer/electrical work I performed for them.
According to the same dealership, it's performing exactly as is expected, and, I'm just 'too used to other imports/american cars' It's actually the first 'car' car I've owned. I'm a truck/van guy myself. But, I got it for a deal I couldn't pass up. I traded a used laptop that I rebuilt and had maybe, $50 US in. It's so gentle on gas, unless i've got my foot in it, that it's become one of my daily drivers. I can fill it up for about $20 us dollars and drive the hell out of it for nearly a week and a half before it gets to 1/4th a tank. I don't like to run any of my vehicles that low on gas for any length of time because it's hard on the fuel pump to do so. I'm very pleased with it, so far. It's responsive on the throttle, easy on the gas, and sticks to the road!
I can shift into drive from either position. It will only allow me to start it from those positions. I can't start it while in drive, but, I can shut it down while in drive. Out of force of habit and proper driving technique, I'm always on the brake pedal when I goto start it or shift out of park/neutral, but, there's nothing forcing me to be.
[ 70 FR 38051, July 1, 2005, as amended at 70 FR 75965, Dec. 22, 2005]The particular car I'm discussing was made in 1992. if I'm not in p or n, it won't let me engage the solenoid, but, it will let me shut the car off in any gear I desire and pull the key out of the ignition switch.
Would you care to explain the logic behind that statement?
I don't know if he is correct, but a lot of people would agree with that. The pump is cooled by the gas in the tank and if it gets low the pump could run hotter.
In saw more in-tank pumps go bad due to clogged up fuel filters, in part because of rust caused by condensation from tanks always being run low. A full tank keeps the condensation low. Ethanol adds to the problem by mixing that rusty water in with the gasoline so the filter catches it and gets clogged up, causing the pump to have to work harder to deliver the gas.
BTW, I wrote this before clacking on your link, so, sorry for being redundant! [g]
On the other hand the ethanol gets the water out right away instead of allowing it to collect in the bottom of the tank. Condensation is not as big a deal these days since tanks are not freely vented to air. They breathe through a carbon filter.
That's true. When the ethanol was first introduced it caused a lot of problems until most of the water was gone from the tanks. Not only your vehicles, but the storage tanks at gas stations as well. Evap systems have helped big too.
I've read much about this topic today, Ed. I've learned a great deal too. Things have changed a great deal since I was a youngster!
Thank you for pointing me in the right direction. :-)
This is a constant argument among boaters. Guys say "I put a tank of E-10 in my boat and had troubles" but the people who use it all the time don't have any trouble at all. The only warning is it did attack some kinds of plastic and you definitely do not want to store it too long. As long as you buy it and burn it right away you will be fine. I am old enough to remember lots of pure gas turning to varnish and gumming up carbs. It was not a panacea
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