Need help INTERPRETING these test results police cruiser SAE J866a Chase Test

On Tuesday, January 16, 2018 at 12:25:43 PM UTC-5, Mad Roger wrote:

You;ve misinterpreted basic economics. There is a demand curve where demand is a function of price. But that's a single curve for a certain product with it's defined specification. It does not imply that there is no relationship between the price of various different versions of that product that differ in specification and price. For example, there is a demand curve for prime steak. There is a demand curve for choice steak and a demand curve for select steak. They are separate curves and the prime steak curve is the higher price curve. Draw a chart and you'll have three curves, the prime curve being the highest. What you're saying is there is no correlation between higher price between select steak and prime steak. It wold be rare to find the better prime steak that sells at the price of a select steak, there is a direct correlation.
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On Tue, 16 Jan 2018 09:54:16 -0800 (PST), trader_4 wrote:

Naah. I took the class. I got an A. If it's "elastic", it follows the supply and demand curve, where prices are set based purely on demand.
If it's not elastic, then all bets are off.
Marketing's job is to make things non elastic, and they do a great job of that, given, for example, people seem to wait in long lines just to spend twice as much on an iPhone as it's actually worth.

Assuming it's perfectly elastic.

Nobody said otherwise. If there's something "different" (even the color for example), then it's different.
What you seem to be discussing is the difference between a commodity (where even the color is unimportant), and the opposite of a commodity: <https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-opposite-of-the-word-commodity
The curves are completely different in their elasticity. A brake shoe "should" be a commodity (but might not be).

Again, same concept as above. Those are three different things because demand is different for them. There could even be a curve for Australian versus British Prime Steak.
If it were a commodity, then the curve is more elastic than if it's not.

Nobody ever said the curves aren't different for different products. They can even be different in different locales. For example, whale steak may have a different curve in Japan than in India.

Nobody ever said that each product has its own supply and demand curves. If you consider a pink iPhone different than a black one, it can have a different curve.
The Marketing people figure all this out for us and price accordingly to get the best marginal utility out of us.

You inferred that. Incorrectly. Nobody said it but you. :)

What we need to discuss is brake pads and shoes.
They would actually have different curves if they were different, or, more to the point, if people *believed* they were different.
For example, if you thought an EE pad was shit (as I did), then it would be worthless to you at any price, even at free. But if you thought an EE pad could be as good as an FF pad at braking, then the curve is completely different.
At the moment, the only logical conclusion anyone can scientifically make, is that all pads we can buy the USA are 'about the same' (give or take) because we have no way of telling them apart if we had both in our hands (or on the web).
In the end, Clare did say pretty much to get any shoe that "says" it meets OEM Quality - so that means all OEM Quality shoes should have the same demand curve.
This is only enginering, logic, and economics. No black art should be involved in buying brake pads and shoes.
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On Tuesday, January 16, 2018 at 4:16:13 PM UTC-5, Mad Roger wrote:

You did when you said:
"I think price is not an indication of anything other than what the marketing can make people pay. It's certainly not an indication of quality."
Do you really think that a prime steak has the same price as a choice steak, or a select grade steak? That a top quality 10" chef's knife from Henckel, Wusthoff, Misono doesn't reflect that quality and require a much higher price than the $5 10" chef knife at the discount store? The prices are correlated to the quality of the product. The same applies to brake pads, certainly to some extent.

Price is never directly related to quality.

Well duh! And there is a difference in brake pads!

It's no different than steaks or chef knives. There is a curve for a prime steak, there is a curve for a select steak. There is a curve for an entry level brake pad that wears fast, doesn't last very long, doesn't have the best fade performance, creates a lot of duct, etc. There is a curve for pads that have better performance in one or more of those area and they cost more.

Just like the demand is different for a brake pad that doesn't create dust, one that lasts longer, etc.

You did:
"Price is never directly related to quality. Price is only a function of demand. "
Price is only a function of demand within the demand curve for a specific brake pad. Once you change the brake pad, say to one that doesn't create dust, it's an entirely different demand curve and it will typically be priced at a premium. And that statement you made is still wrong, price is not only a function of demand, it's a function of supply too.

And so can freaking brake pads, for the same reason.

You said it, exactly as cited.
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On Tue, 16 Jan 2018 14:41:54 -0800 (PST), trader_4 wrote:

You didn't understand a single word I said. Either that, or you just want to argue.
We agree on the curves being *different* for things that are perceived to be different.
If a tire to a billion people is NOT a commodity (there doesn't seem to be a word for the opposite of a commodity), then each one has a certain demand curve.
If those same tires *are* considered a commodity to another billion people, then those tires, to those people, have a *different* (lumped together as one) commodity-based demand curve.
Either you understand that, or you just want to argue for argument's sake. I am done with arguing what is in *every* Economics textbook on the planet.
I can't teach you an entire course in Economics 101 in just a Usenet thread. You either understand the basics, or you don't.
It's marketing's job to increase *perception* of value.
If you like beef and don't like pork, then the curves are different. If you don't care, and if it's all just "meat" to you, then they're not.
This is extremely basic stuff covered in the first weeks of class.
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On Tuesday, January 16, 2018 at 6:20:04 PM UTC-5, Mad Roger wrote:

Funny remark coming from the guy where Clare and others here have told you that you're the one who just wants to argue and can't be educated, even after they've made 20 posts trying.

Not just "perceived", for things that ARE different. A better performing brake pad is typically more expensive to produce, which makes the supply curve different. It has a different demand curve from customers and the balance point where supply and demand meet reflects that in a HIGHER market price for the pads with the better performance.

And why then would this not be true of brake pads too? Tires are optimized for various performance characteristics and there are tires that cost more that perform better than cheap tires. Same thing with brake pads. But according to you, performance and price are never correlated.

I understand economics perfectly. And I understand brake pads enough to know that THEY AREN'T ALL THE SAME COMMODITY ITEM.
Then why did you say this:
"I think price is not an indication of anything other than what the marketing can make people pay. It's certainly not an indication of quality."
Do you think you can manufacture the best performing brake pads for the same price as the most basic ones? That consumers value the two the same? Good grief.
It's just like the steak and chef knife examples I gave you. Good grief, Clare has explained over and over to you that there are substantial and important differences in brake pad choices. You came in here with the angle that it's all about the coefficient of friction. It's been pointed out to you that there are many other characteristics that differentiate pads, yet now you want to segue into economics and claim that they are all the same, so price and those characteristics have no relationship. It's just that you want to make them all the same to justify your foolish remark:
"I think price is not an indication of anything other than what the marketing can make people pay. It's certainly not an indication of quality."
Quality isn't even the right term here, because strictly speaking from a manufacturing perspective, quality is delivering a product that meets the specification, on time. You could have a product spec that has a tolerance of +/- 10 thousandths of an inch in a dimension and one that has a tolerance of +/- 1 thousandth. If all the product coming out of those two different lines meets the production spec, then it's all quality product, good product, as far as quality measurement goes.
What makes one pad cost more is differences in the composition and manufacturing which results in different performance parameters, which to you and customers could be loosely called "quality", in layman's terms.

The curves would always be separate demand curves, they are two different products.

Only if it's sold as mystery meat that can be either beef or pork.

And sadly you didn't learn economics any better than the technical details of brake pads.
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On 1/16/2018 5:20 PM, Mad Roger wrote:

The exam question you missed was Veblen.
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
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On Wed, 17 Jan 2018 08:54:51 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

I never heard of Veblen ... here's some information I just read about him. In a word, unconventional.
Thorstein Veblen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorstein_Veblen
The Social Economics of Thorstein Veblen http://michael-hudson.com/2012/10/the-social-economics-of-thorstein-veblen/
Thorstein Veblen | Economics | 1857-1929 https://www.lib.uchicago.edu/projects/centcat/fac/facch09_01.html
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On Tue, 16 Jan 2018 08:45:56 -0800 (PST), snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

Yup. Basic Economics 101. Price is only a function of demand.
Price is never directly related to quality. Price is only a function of demand.
Demand is a function of lots of complex variables, which is why they invented Marketing (to greatly influence the demand).

I can't imagine buying used brake shoes or pads off a scrapped car. I just can't.

Whoever proposes to buy brake pads and shoes off of junked cars is fine with his logic, but he doesn't need to repeat it since it's not something most of us would do.
I can see buying some parts at a scrap yard (e.g., a door or a fender), but I just can't see buying a brake pad or shoe off a scrapped car.
How do you even do that? Do you walk around the junk yard to look for your exact year, make and model and then pull the wheels and then pull the pads?
That's a lot of work, if you even find the right make and model, and then if you can get to it (since they pile these things five cars high sometimes) and if you can get the rusted lug bolts and brake drums off and then you have to disassemble the brakes.
Seems like a *lot* of work for a brake shoe that will be "iffy" because you have no way of knowing their condition ahead of time.
Or, maybe the junk yard does that for you, but then you are just staring at a pile of brake shoes on the wall, which maybe, if you're lucky, have accurate designations for the make and model of the vehicle they came off of.
I guess if you bring your old shoes with you, you can match them, but that means your car is on blocks the whole time you do this, so you have to have a second vehicle to do it.
I just don't see *how* it's practicable. Do you?
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On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 18:05:29 -0800 (PST), snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

I think you hit the reluctant nail on the head!
The only way this can make sense is if all brake pads work. Period.
Because if people were getting into accidents due to bad brake pads, someone would step in and stop that (we hope).
Notice even the police report, which is the only scientific study we have, never said any pad was better or worse - they just required more foot pounds or fewer foot pounds of pedal force for the same deceleration value.
They never said anything about not being able to decelerate at the desired deceleration value.
So, I very belatedly am getting the lesson that, in terms of stopping a typical passenger vehicle, all pads sold are just about the same in terms of performance.
Another way of saying that is that no matter what the price is, you can't get a bad pad (nor a good pad). All you get is a pad.
All this assumes that you can't afford to run your own scientific tests, because the one scientific test we do have, concludes as much anyway in that there's no way to tell unless you run the test yourself, which you can't do.
For actual racing, those guys can spend the actual immense time comparing two different pads, but the consumer is left to realize, as sad as this conclusion is for me to state, that all consumer-available brake pads are pretty much exactly the same in terms of stopping ability.
Sigh. It's sad. I didn't want to conclude that. I really didn't. But it is what the science tells us it is. The rest is just marketing bullshit and fear mongering from the butt-dynos that think if they paid $157 for a pad, then it must be better than if they paid $20 for the same pad.
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On Monday, January 15, 2018 at 9:19:48 AM UTC-5, Mad Roger wrote:

Bingo. Cops are supposed to be reasonably physically fit. We went to anti-lock brakes because the regular drivers were locking the breaks. I've never had a car with any brake pads where I could not very easily with limited force, lock the brakes. So, why the obsession with the coefficient of friction? For the typical driver, how much brake dust they put out is more of an issue. I can see the coefficient of friction affecting how they feel, whether you need to put X force that;s within your ability to lock them, or X plus some force that's still well within your ability to lock them, but that's all.

Bingo again.

For a typical drive, I agree. If you're talking about a race track, someone with big loads going down hill, etc, then other factors, like fade performance could make a difference.

That depends on your criteria. If you hate dust for example, there are pads that put out a lot of dust and pads that don't put out very much. There are pads that last longer than others.

And that comes as a surprise to you? I see people online, cheerfully running down to the stealership, to buy the dealers oil at $9 a quart, or their antifreeze, or a part, etc when there are equivalent products available on the market for a fraction of the price. And it doesn't just apply to cars. Monster and similar audio cables that are oxygen free, or pure, or whatever been an excellent example.
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On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 09:54:26 -0800 (PST), trader_4 wrote:

Somewhere I read that ABS doesn't stop you in the shortest distance - it just stops you with the most control. Dunno if that's true as that's not what I was aiming for here.

It's not so much an obsession with any one spec but the desire to be able to intelligently compare two brake shoes that are in one's hand or on the web.
It should be clear by now that I don't trust salesmen or marketing, so I'm pretty much stuck to trusting whatever specs we have.
And we *know* that the AMECA Edge Code is one spec that must, by law, be printed on every shoe.

I agree that there are other important criteria of a second-order nature other than how well a shoe stops.
But just stating them doesn't help.
We have to be able to tell how much shoe A dusts compared to shoe B when we go to the parts store or on the web to buy them.
How do YOU tell if shoe A dusts more or less than shoe B for example?

It doesn't even seem to do that, since as Clare noted, EE and FF brakes had pedal forces to maintain a given deceleration that were 100% different and it didn't matter whether they were EE or FF. It was dependent on the pad.
So, we're really stuck with nothing.
As you noted, *lots* of things are important, but that's meaningless if we can't tell, with the shoes in our hand or on the web, which ones are better than the others.
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On 17/01/2018 7:59 AM, Mad Roger wrote:

You read somewhere? If you understand how ABS systems operate you would *inherently know* the answer, not just from *reading it somewhere*.
The fact that you *don't know if the answer you read was true* proves that you are starting from a very low knowledge base and should stay away from brakes, steering, suspension, even cars in general, until you rectify this *knowledge deficit*.
--

Xeno

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Clare Snyder posted for all of us...

Exactly! When the slickback chevys first came out with ABS the cops were burning up pads and crashing early and often. They had to be *retrained* to keep the binders on and steer out of trouble.
--
Tekkie

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wrote:

And that doesn't even work when you get into sloppy wet slush - The brakes basically shut off, and if you could steer around the trouble you wouldn't need to even try the brakes.
When driving in those conditions you drive as if you have no brakes - because when it comes right down to it, you will be right.
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On 20/01/2018 9:05 AM, Clare Snyder wrote:

Otherwise known as defensive driving!
I like your thinking! ;-)
--

Xeno

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Clare Snyder posted for all of us...

to

+1 Training to steer out of trouble is hard. One has to focus their eyes on where they want to go rather than latching onto the collision site.
--
Tekkie

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On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 14:19:44 -0000 (UTC), Mad Roger

The tests were limited - addressing the use a cruiser puts the brakes to. If you know how to read the information, it tells you a LOT about the brakes - but you are correct - there is no "best" brake material - it depends onthe use they are being put to, and what YOU want from them. There may well , however, be " WORST" brakes.
If brakes require higher pedal pressure to stop in a longer distance (and decellerate at a lower rate) both when cold and at normal temperature, and fade significantly on the second and third application - they are pretty crappy brakes.
If they require low pedal pressure to decellerate quickly to a stop in a short distance when both cold and at normaltemperatures, AND do not fade appreciably on the second and third (panic) stop - they are pretty darn good brakes - anlness they squeal like a stuck pig, only last for a month of driving, and/or destroy brake rotors - and/or coat the wheels with nasty corrosive brake dust - - -

No, not at all - you are TOTALLY missing the point. The different brake PAD materials are mission specific. A ceramic pad will outstop a economy organic pad when hot - hands down. Every time. A metallic pad will usually stop better after several panic stops, or when towing a heavy trailer down a longhill - than either the organic or the ceramic. Both the semi metallic and the organic will stop better on a cold stop than a ceramic.

No. a $85 Thermoquiet Ceramic will stop better than a $20 no-name organic pad - and you can be pretty well assured you will not get a $20 ceramic pad unless Rock Auto has something on clearout.
Price is not a sure predictor of quality - but can be a pretty darn good indicator.
Also, a high iron semi metallic WILL wear out your rotors faster than either the organic or the ceramic unless the organic causes the rotor to blister because of uneven pad material transfer, and abuse.
What you TOTALLY do NOT understand is how disc brakes, in particular, work - and how the co-efficient of friction changes.
When you "bed in" pads, you are burnishiung a thin coating of pad material into the finish of the rotor.. The stopping power of the brake depends on the co-efficient of friction between this burnished in friction material and the pad - not between the pad and bare metal. How this coating is applied, and maintained, dictated the braking charachteristics of a disc brake as much as anything. If you stop hard and fast and keep your foot onthe pedal at a stop untill the brake cooles,there will be a heavier deposit on the rotor at that point - UNLESS the padmaterial deposited on the rotor does not adhere properly and it pulls away with the pad. Either way you will end up with uneven braking - either a "thump" or a "skip" on the next brake application.
A "quality": pad will transfer evenly and bond reliably to the rotor during the perscribed "bed-in" and will not cause uneven transfer under "normal" driving conditions. It will also not cause or promote corrosion between that pad mnaterial and the rotor steel (which causes "scabbies" and pitted rotors (often mistaken for the less common, but sometimes "real" "warped rotor".
Inferior brake friction material performs more poorly in these ways than premium materials.
A worn, glazed, or grooved rotor will not "bed in" reliably because the surface will heat and cool unevenly - with uneven pressure across the brake surface -
So brake friction material quality AND the installation affect brake performance.
Also, the brake mounting hardware - the shims and springs either provided with the new pads, purchased separately, or salvaged from the prior installation (whether OEM or aftermarket or totally missing) alsohave effects on the performance (and life) of the brakes. Heat transfer, Vibration, and freedon to move in the caliper, are all effected by the quality and presence of the proper mounting hardware - which is designed/modified by the pad manufacturer to matvch the characteristics and requirements of their particular pad and friction material - which is why "premium"brake kits are supplied with the proper hardware to install the brakes for their best performance.

More paranoid bullshit.

Total bullshit. The friction rating doesn't tell you much, but the difference in required pedal pressure, and the difference in stopping distance - notto mention the difference in pad temperature between the best and worst in the test is VERY significant. What is NOT significant is the predictabiklity of the results based on the frictionrating of the pads under test. (almost totally useless)

WRONG. And do your friend a favour and send them to a REAL mechanic to have their brake work done. I fear you are DANGEROUS.
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On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 15:02:37 -0500, Clare Snyder wrote:

Exactly. You've been right all along while I was hoping beyond hope that there is an intelligent way to select a good/better/best brake pad.
You were right. I was wrong.
If you have two pads in your hands, or two on the net, you can't make an intelligent choice between them, other than to know if they're the same or not, and to know who made them, and to know what their cold and hot friction coefficients are.
That's it.
Each pad can be different - but you have no way of knowing that from the pad itself.

Nobody complained about fade in that one report we have, did they? I don't think we have any better "fade" test than the Chase value for hot friction (which was E or F depending on the pads tested).
So, while fade is important - it's a useless criteria since we have no way of knowing the fade.
It's just silly to bring up all the things that *can* happen if you have no way of choosing between them when the pads are in your very hands.
I don't disagree with you that two pads can be vastly different, but you have no way of knowing anything other than their tested friction, their manufacturer, and whether two pads are exactly the same material.
That's all you've got since brands are almost meaningless (e.g., PBR, Axxis and Metalmasters are the same company) and semi-metallic/metalic/ceramic marketing is even more meaningless.

All well and good, but it's like predicting that a baby will become the president of the United States.

Let's just agree to disagree since you don't seem to realize what I know from talking to the Axxis marketing guy that the word 'ceramic' is a bullshit marketing term.
Do you think I don't call these marketing guys up? Do I seem like someone who doesn't ask pointed questions?
Ceramic is complete and total marketing bullshit. The marketing guy told me himself.
(Yes, I see the difficulty of position that puts me in.)

Let's agree to disagree. You believe in marketing. I don't.
I believe in specifications.

Let's agree to disagree.
You think price has some impact on performance. I will prove to you that I can show exact same products with different branding but the exact same price.
Everyone loves a number-line decision, whether it's good/better/best of metallic/semi-metallic/ceramic or $10/$20/$30 or 3-year/4-year-/5-year warranty, but none of that indicates a better or worse object.
Only specifications do, and we just don't know much about the spec other than who made the pad, the code for the exact formulation, and the friction.
Everything else is bullshit.

Price is an indicator of demand only. Demand is influenced by a shitload of factors. You know that. I know that. Let's not argue it. That's what Economics 101 was for, and I already took that and passed it.

If you truly know the "hardness", then of course it matters. But you have no way of knowing the hardness. Do you?

I think I do understand how disc brakes work, but we can discuss what you think I don't understand.
What I know is that your energy of movement has to be converted into something else, most notably heat. Lots and lots of heat.

Yup. Pad deposition. Something about covalent bonds making and breaking under the heat of braking, where the breaking of the bonds elicits heat.
It gets complex HOW the heat is generated (it's not just 'friction'), but the end result is heat. Lots and lots of heat.

The Ameca engineer already explained the burnished pads that the Michegan study used where he said it was to get rid of the volatile gases that come out of the first few heat cycles.

Yup. We all know how to property bed our brakes. I doubt many shops do it though, because it requires a lot of room and a few very hard almost stops where, if there is traffic, it ain't easy to do.
I'll wager that few, if any, shops properly bed the pads. But you'd have that experience because I've never been to a mechanic.

NEVER, and I mean NEVER leave your foot on the pedal after a hard stop! Everyone knows this, so I know you know this. It's the worst thing you can do, unless you love to have judder every few thousand miles as that ped deposition collects more pad over time.
I never understood why, but once a pad print, always a pad print. And it only gets worse.
Unless you re-bed the brakes - which everyone knows - so you're preaching to the choir on even brake pad deposition techniques.

Yes. But. I have no good way of knowing a quality pad from a not quality pad. So it's moot.
It's like me picking out the best students in a class based on whether they wear glasses or not.

It's significant in one thing. Pedal pressure. If pedal pressure is your gig - then it's significant. If pedal pressure isn't your gig, then it's not significant.
The pedal pressure changed about 100%, from roughly less than ten foot pounds to less than twenty foot pounds in the lower-speed tests for example.
What's 10 foot pounds? Dunno when it's pressing on a pedal, but if that's important, then you have to buy a police cruiser and put those pads on it - because it doesn't tell you anything about your car unless it's a police cruiser.

Yup. We agree. There is no useful data other than the AMECA code and even that isn't meant for the consumer.

Knowledge is dangerous. Logic is dangerous. Thinking is dangerous.
Having someone else do all that for you, is dangerous. The mechanic doesn't give a shit about you or your brake pads.
All the mechanic cares about is your money, and getting as much of that as possible, in the least time possible, so he'll skip steps like you can't believe.
I'm on car forums where there are complaints galore about mechanics skipping half the steps in anything because they don't give a shit about anything but money.
The only way to do it right is to do it yourself, is my motto.
You can disagree (and you almost certainly will), but you can't disagree that I'm trying to make an intelligent decision on which brake shoes to buy, and that I probably know them as well as any mechanic who *thinks* he knows them - but he doesn't - because he can't.
Nobody can but the guy who submitted them for their Chase test.
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On Tue, 16 Jan 2018 02:09:50 +0000 (UTC), Mad Roger

If I know my application jolly right I can

You obviously did not read and absorb the details of the michigan test. All the brake fade data is clearly there if you know how to read the report.

i CAN TELL YOU which brake pad is going to fade the worst, just knowing the COMPOSITION of the pad - organic, semi-metallic, or ceramic - particularly between products from the same manufacturer. WHos ceramic is beter than whos is a different story - -0 -

I can know who made them and what market theyn are aimed at - which gives me a lot more information than their 2 letter friction rating.

You are a total MORON
AXXIS and PBR ARE the same company, but a PBR or AXXIS Metalmaster is NOT the same as a PBR or AXXIS Delux or Advanced Ceramic - but PBR/AXXIS has more marketing BS than many companies.

well, I know from dealing with brake application engineers and my studies that "marketing guys" are generally like a dirty diaper.

You seam like someone who doesan't know the questions to ask, doesn't know when he's being snowed, and is so obvious that the marketing guys know they can snow you and you won't know the difference. When you need technical information you don't ask marketing - you ask engineering - and you don't go in like a smartass - they can see right through you.

The marketing guy doesn't know shit from shinola

I'll agree to allow you to remain eternally clueless since you are totally unteachable.

Just like a dirty diaper.
AXXIS delux pads are the same as PBR delux pads, but are NOT the same as AXXIS or PBR Metalmasters - and "Metalmaster" is not a company or resller - it is a "model" or "type" iof pad marketted by AXXIS , a devision of PBR PLC in Australia.

A warranty is an insurance policy - not an indicator of quality. How else do you explain a 10year warranty on the shittiest cars to come out of Japan - the MisuShitty. They can't sell their crap without a 10year warranty - and when the warranty is expired you can't sell one - period.

Yad yada yada---------

Sure I do

Well, he was WRONG.

Most certainly NOT everybody knows it.

Not neccesarily - If caught on time it is almost always reversible

You are a thickskulled and stubborn person - totally unteachable

WRONG - his livelihhod depends on it

Wrong. As a professional mechanic of long standing, with an EXCELLENT reputation, I take that as a total affrront

I've seen the same forums - and most of the compainers are just as dumb as you are.

You are free to do it yourself on your own car - although I don't plan on being anywhere near you - but you should NOT be doing repairs on other peoples vehicles - you are untrained, unauthorized, and uninsured.
Anyone letting you work on their vehicles should be made aware of that, and the dangers implied.
Ignorance is no excuse.

Well, you would be wrong.

Wrong again.
PLONK
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On Tue, 16 Jan 2018 08:52:07 -0800 (PST), snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

I agree with your logical thought process in that the only scientific summary that makes logical sense is that all pads work just fine in passenger vehicles, with the main difference being the foot pounds of torque applied to the brake pedal to obtain the desired deceleration rate.
Hence, any pad is fine, EE or FF or GG, for stopping the vehicle.

I go though a set of front pads once every couple of years, never more than two years on my own vehicle, but on this vehicle, it took 20 years to go through one set of rear shoes.

The problem isn't the scrapyard per se. The problem is getting the *right* pads at the scrapyard. That can't be easy (see my other post on how that's done).

What does that even mean?

I don't at all disagree with your apropos logic that every time you buy a used car you get used pads, but, you can assume (logically) that the pads fit.
I've been to junk yards where there literally are junked cars piled four and five cars high outdoors, where you walk the yard looking for the fender or mirror that you want.
To look for brake pads would be an order of magnitude harder because you can't see the brake pad until you find a similar vehicle make model and year, you climb up to the top car, you remove the wheels, you pull the rusty drums or calipers off, and then, only then, do you get any chance to see the condition of the brake pads and shoes.
Or, if the scrapyard does all that for you, and has placed a ton of brake shoes on the shelves, you can pick among them for the right size and shape, but that process comes with the problem that you have to have a comparison pad and shoe in your hands, which means your car is up on blocks and you're borrowing someone else's car.
If you can read the AMECA edge code, you have a chance at getting the right shoe or pad, but it sure does seem like a lot of effort when an FF pad or shoe is about $20 a set of four at Rock Auto.
Did I surmise the scrap yard process incorrectly? If so, how would you correct that process of *selecting* the right pads?
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