Most definitely is NOT marketing Bullshit. It is solid engineering
You speak mandarin, do you? There may not be "legal" definitions, but there are industry accepted definitions - and I've sent you numerous referencesthat spell them out pretty clearly. Yes, there are "hybrids" that sort of bridge the gap - but MOST of them are identified as such.
Most definirely not. There is a small percentage of metal even in organic pads, and the metal does not need to be iron. And "ceramic" has nothing to do with "dust".
A ceramic is a vitified clay base which may or may not have metals also included. A ceramic does not use phenol;ic binders.
And YOU think YOU are smart. (nobody else does - sorry to break your bubble)
and if you are SMART you buy the type of pad that matches yourdriving requirements - which for most commuters is a standard organic pad, for heavy duty use, a semi metallioc, and for high speed light duty, generally a ceramic.
And yet you most certainly do NOT when it comes to brakes. You are totally clueless and uneducatable
PBR Axxis Metal Master Brake Pads, Ultimate Brake Pads, and Deluxe Brake Pads
Note: The FMP Group Australia Pty. Ltd., is the manufacturer of Axxis and PBR brand brake pads; these pads are identical.
Axxis Ultimate Brake Pads
Ultimate
The PBR Axxis Ultimate brake pads feature a special Kevlar® and ceramic-strengthened formula with a high co-efficient of friction and excellent high temperature wear and fade resistance. Designed for ultra-high performance driving and hard-braking applications, PBR Axxis Ultimate pad users will benefit with extreme stopping power and high resistance to brake fade at high temperatures, meaning the decrease in friction over repeated heavy duty stops, as the temperature increases, is minimal. PBR Axxis Ultimate pads boast a maximum continuous working temperature of 550° C (1022° F degrees). Consistent throughout its operating temperature range, you?ll get dependable, predictable stops time after time while maintaining a solid pedal feel.
Axxis Metal Master
Metal Master
Metal Master: Non-asbestos, semi-metallic compound provides the highest fade resistance among leading semi-met brake pads. They deliver proven longer pad and rotor life, with low rotor scoring and quiet braking. ?Designed for applications requiring the highest performance ?Premium quality, non-asbestos, semi-metallic formula ?Unique formula offers reduced brake dust, fade and squeal ?Provides the ultimate stopping power under all conditions ?Virtually eliminates squeal and dust ?Improved cold effectiveness ?Improved pad life
Axxis Deluxe
Deluxe
Exclusive OE equivalent organic compound provides outstanding stopping power with very low fade. Extremely quiet with proven long pad and rotor life and low rotor scoring. Provides measurably longer life and has extreme resistance to heat while delivering consistent, smooth braking performance. ?Formulated from the latest premium quality, organic materials ?Low dust, low squeal ?Delivers quality braking performance ?Rotor friendly ?Smooth stopping power ?Low dust and squeal ?Extended pad life Get yourself a set of PBR Axxis Ultimate, Metal Master, or Deluxe pads today! Brake pads! High Performance Brake Pads! Theres nothing better for braking performance than a good brake pad.
So PBR makes 3 differentlines of brakes. One is sold as AXXIS Ultimate, oneas Axxis Metal Master, and one as Axxis Deluxe. (Also sold underthe PBR brand)
3 totally different pads for diufferent use - all spelled out on the PBR brake products web site. If you spoke to a PBR marketing person you spoke to an idiot who doesn't know their product line, and knows even less about brakes. What you got from HIM WAS marketing bullshit.
Whoever you called gave you VERY bad information.
And you are still stupid enough to think you have to buy online -- I just cannot figure you idiots out.
But metallics are not NECESSARILLY magnetic - because they can be copper or brass - and even ceramics can have some metal in them - as can some organics. You just DON"T GET IT.
Get used to it.
Which is pure bull;shit when talking about tiuer one aftermarket suppliers (which are also OEM suppliers in most cases)
I do NOT buy on a "number line" - I buy by spec. I buy organic, semi metallic, or ceramic depending on what brake characteristics I need and what I'm willing to pay.
You've done it to yourself.
You keep going between pads and shoes. There is so much difference - hardly oranges to oranges - barely apples to oranges - more like rutabagas to apples.
ANd I don't look at "marketing spin" I look at "real" specifications. What KIND of brake material is it? Knowing the KIND of material I can pretty accurately deduce the basic qualities of the brake product - and knowing the manufacturer AND the composition, I can make a pretty good deduction as to quality and suitability for my purpose. Without any "number line" or "friction rating"
And where do you get the idea I trust "marketing"?????
No, for the Toyota you buy Akebono brake shoes - the aftermarket supplier that also produces the OEM brakes for a large percentage of Toyota vehicles (Toyota generally "dual sources" all major parts that the source from outside, like brakes, shoicks, lenses, bulbs, and spark plugs. If one supplier has a problem they cut them off until the problem is solved. (for spark plugs it was always either Nipon Denso or NGK,, foir many parts like AC it was Aisin or Denso.
The MAJOR Tier one aftermarket suppliers are also major OEM suppliers.
TRW, Walker,Monroe, Delphi, and a host of other manufacturers design and build all kinds of parts for the OEM market - as well as the aftermarket.
That will be ONE of their brake suppliers.
Then what are yopu fussing about????????
Not if their "intuition" is "educated"
ANd you know NOTHING about octane and detonation - I'd be willing to bet significantly on that one. (Few people do - the myths on that subject are - well - "mythical".
Don't get started on that one unless you want to get TOTALLY buried......
Why use Ocam's razor - don't you have your own????
Seriously - you are making more assumtions than I am - therefore the chances of your conclusions being correct are significantly less than mine.
Not quite sure you fully understand "Ockham's Razor" either (also known as Occams razor - not Ocams) - a theory first postulated by a
14th century mathemetician and Franciscan Friar by the name of William of Ockham as part of his "unified field theory"
His principal is simply "Entities should not be multiplied unnecessarily."
It has been expanded on by many others includingsuch natables as Einstein
Like any sharp instrument -Ockhams razor should not be weilded blindly - - - -
You obviously did not read and absorb the details of the michigan test. All the brake fade data is clearly there if you know how to read the report.
i CAN TELL YOU which brake pad is going to fade the worst, just knowing the COMPOSITION of the pad - organic, semi-metallic, or ceramic - particularly between products from the same manufacturer. WHos ceramic is beter than whos is a different story - -0 -
I can know who made them and what market theyn are aimed at - which gives me a lot more information than their 2 letter friction rating.
You are a total MORON
AXXIS and PBR ARE the same company, but a PBR or AXXIS Metalmaster is NOT the same as a PBR or AXXIS Delux or Advanced Ceramic - but PBR/AXXIS has more marketing BS than many companies.
well, I know from dealing with brake application engineers and my studies that "marketing guys" are generally like a dirty diaper.
You seam like someone who doesan't know the questions to ask, doesn't know when he's being snowed, and is so obvious that the marketing guys know they can snow you and you won't know the difference. When you need technical information you don't ask marketing - you ask engineering - and you don't go in like a smartass - they can see right through you.
The marketing guy doesn't know shit from shinola
I'll agree to allow you to remain eternally clueless since you are totally unteachable.
Just like a dirty diaper.
AXXIS delux pads are the same as PBR delux pads, but are NOT the same as AXXIS or PBR Metalmasters - and "Metalmaster" is not a company or resller - it is a "model" or "type" iof pad marketted by AXXIS , a devision of PBR PLC in Australia.
A warranty is an insurance policy - not an indicator of quality. How else do you explain a 10year warranty on the shittiest cars to come out of Japan - the MisuShitty. They can't sell their crap without a
10year warranty - and when the warranty is expired you can't sell one
- period.
Yad yada yada---------
Sure I do
Well, he was WRONG.
Most certainly NOT everybody knows it.
Not neccesarily - If caught on time it is almost always reversible
You are a thickskulled and stubborn person - totally unteachable
WRONG - his livelihhod depends on it
Wrong. As a professional mechanic of long standing, with an EXCELLENT reputation, I take that as a total affrront
I've seen the same forums - and most of the compainers are just as dumb as you are.
You are free to do it yourself on your own car - although I don't plan on being anywhere near you - but you should NOT be doing repairs on other peoples vehicles - you are untrained, unauthorized, and uninsured.
Anyone letting you work on their vehicles should be made aware of that, and the dangers implied.
Yup. Basic Economics 101. Price is only a function of demand.
Price is never directly related to quality. Price is only a function of demand.
Demand is a function of lots of complex variables, which is why they invented Marketing (to greatly influence the demand).
I can't imagine buying used brake shoes or pads off a scrapped car. I just can't.
Whoever proposes to buy brake pads and shoes off of junked cars is fine with his logic, but he doesn't need to repeat it since it's not something most of us would do.
I can see buying some parts at a scrap yard (e.g., a door or a fender), but I just can't see buying a brake pad or shoe off a scrapped car.
How do you even do that? Do you walk around the junk yard to look for your exact year, make and model and then pull the wheels and then pull the pads?
That's a lot of work, if you even find the right make and model, and then if you can get to it (since they pile these things five cars high sometimes) and if you can get the rusted lug bolts and brake drums off and then you have to disassemble the brakes.
Seems like a *lot* of work for a brake shoe that will be "iffy" because you have no way of knowing their condition ahead of time.
Or, maybe the junk yard does that for you, but then you are just staring at a pile of brake shoes on the wall, which maybe, if you're lucky, have accurate designations for the make and model of the vehicle they came off of.
I guess if you bring your old shoes with you, you can match them, but that means your car is on blocks the whole time you do this, so you have to have a second vehicle to do it.
Yup. Basic Economics 101. Price is only a function of demand.
Price is never directly related to quality. Price is only a function of demand.
Demand is a function of lots of complex variables, which is why they invented Marketing (to greatly influence the demand).
I can't imagine buying used brake shoes or pads off a scrapped car. I just can't.
Whoever proposes to buy brake pads and shoes off of junked cars is fine with his logic, but he doesn't need to repeat it since it's not something most of us would do.
I can see buying some parts at a scrap yard (e.g., a door or a fender), but I just can't see buying a brake pad or shoe off a scrapped car.
How do you even do that? Do you walk around the junk yard to look for your exact year, make and model and then pull the wheels and then pull the pads?
That's a lot of work, if you even find the right make and model, and then if you can get to it (since they pile these things five cars high sometimes) and if you can get the rusted lug bolts and brake drums off and then you have to disassemble the brakes.
Seems like a *lot* of work for a brake shoe that will be "iffy" because you have no way of knowing their condition ahead of time.
Or, maybe the junk yard does that for you, but then you are just staring at a pile of brake shoes on the wall, which maybe, if you're lucky, have accurate designations for the make and model of the vehicle they came off of.
I guess if you bring your old shoes with you, you can match them, but that means your car is on blocks the whole time you do this, so you have to have a second vehicle to do it.
You;ve misinterpreted basic economics. There is a demand curve where demand is a function of price. But that's a single curve for a certain product with it's defined specification. It does not imply that there is no relationship between the price of various different versions of that product that differ in specification and price. For example, there is a demand curve for prime steak. There is a demand curve for choice steak and a demand curve for select steak. They are separate curves and the prime steak curve is the higher price curve. Draw a chart and you'll have three curves, the prime curve being the highest. What you're saying is there is no correlation between higher price between select steak and prime steak. It wold be rare to find the better prime steak that sells at the price of a select steak, there is a direct correlation.
I agree with your logical thought process in that the only scientific summary that makes logical sense is that all pads work just fine in passenger vehicles, with the main difference being the foot pounds of torque applied to the brake pedal to obtain the desired deceleration rate.
Hence, any pad is fine, EE or FF or GG, for stopping the vehicle.
I go though a set of front pads once every couple of years, never more than two years on my own vehicle, but on this vehicle, it took 20 years to go through one set of rear shoes.
The problem isn't the scrapyard per se. The problem is getting the *right* pads at the scrapyard. That can't be easy (see my other post on how that's done).
What does that even mean?
I don't at all disagree with your apropos logic that every time you buy a used car you get used pads, but, you can assume (logically) that the pads fit.
I've been to junk yards where there literally are junked cars piled four and five cars high outdoors, where you walk the yard looking for the fender or mirror that you want.
To look for brake pads would be an order of magnitude harder because you can't see the brake pad until you find a similar vehicle make model and year, you climb up to the top car, you remove the wheels, you pull the rusty drums or calipers off, and then, only then, do you get any chance to see the condition of the brake pads and shoes.
Or, if the scrapyard does all that for you, and has placed a ton of brake shoes on the shelves, you can pick among them for the right size and shape, but that process comes with the problem that you have to have a comparison pad and shoe in your hands, which means your car is up on blocks and you're borrowing someone else's car.
If you can read the AMECA edge code, you have a chance at getting the right shoe or pad, but it sure does seem like a lot of effort when an FF pad or shoe is about $20 a set of four at Rock Auto.
Did I surmise the scrap yard process incorrectly? If so, how would you correct that process of *selecting* the right pads?
I removed s.e.r so I didn't see this post until moving over to a.h.r, so I apologize for not having prior responded.
I agree with you on pedal force, where we must note that the range was from about 8 foot pounds to about 30 foot pounds, from a slow deceleration to a panic stop, which I presume we're all able to supply.
I'm not defending the police report but they did mention that women are in the force now, and they mentioned that they cruise all day, but still, I'm with you on the pedal force.
To their credit, the pedal force *does* equate to stopping distance, where only the 30 foot pound panic stop test actually stops in the *shortest* distance possible.
Fundamentally, what they found was that the pedal force between any two pads (all were either EE or FF) varied by about 10 foot pounds (give or take) to keep to a given deceleration, which, I'm guessing, isn't all that much of a difference that is meaningful to us.
Still ... it's the best test we could find, so if you can find a better test, we'd be all ears.
As for your last comment that 'friction is a red herring', I can't logically disagree (given the facts we've unearthed), but intuitively I would have *assumed* that friction was of primary importance in brake friction materials.
Given that intuition fails in this case, it's one reason why I say that most people who *only* rely on intuition are more often wrong than right, because in this situation, clearly, friction isn't of primary importance in brake friction material performance.
Somewhere I read that ABS doesn't stop you in the shortest distance - it just stops you with the most control. Dunno if that's true as that's not what I was aiming for here.
It's not so much an obsession with any one spec but the desire to be able to intelligently compare two brake shoes that are in one's hand or on the web.
It should be clear by now that I don't trust salesmen or marketing, so I'm pretty much stuck to trusting whatever specs we have.
And we *know* that the AMECA Edge Code is one spec that must, by law, be printed on every shoe.
I agree that there are other important criteria of a second-order nature other than how well a shoe stops.
But just stating them doesn't help.
We have to be able to tell how much shoe A dusts compared to shoe B when we go to the parts store or on the web to buy them.
How do YOU tell if shoe A dusts more or less than shoe B for example?
It doesn't even seem to do that, since as Clare noted, EE and FF brakes had pedal forces to maintain a given deceleration that were 100% different and it didn't matter whether they were EE or FF. It was dependent on the pad.
So, we're really stuck with nothing.
As you noted, *lots* of things are important, but that's meaningless if we can't tell, with the shoes in our hand or on the web, which ones are better than the others.
Naah. I took the class. I got an A. If it's "elastic", it follows the supply and demand curve, where prices are set based purely on demand.
If it's not elastic, then all bets are off.
Marketing's job is to make things non elastic, and they do a great job of that, given, for example, people seem to wait in long lines just to spend twice as much on an iPhone as it's actually worth.
Assuming it's perfectly elastic.
Nobody said otherwise. If there's something "different" (even the color for example), then it's different.
What you seem to be discussing is the difference between a commodity (where even the color is unimportant), and the opposite of a commodity:
The curves are completely different in their elasticity. A brake shoe "should" be a commodity (but might not be).
Again, same concept as above. Those are three different things because demand is different for them. There could even be a curve for Australian versus British Prime Steak.
If it were a commodity, then the curve is more elastic than if it's not.
Nobody ever said the curves aren't different for different products. They can even be different in different locales. For example, whale steak may have a different curve in Japan than in India.
Nobody ever said that each product has its own supply and demand curves. If you consider a pink iPhone different than a black one, it can have a different curve.
The Marketing people figure all this out for us and price accordingly to get the best marginal utility out of us.
You inferred that. Incorrectly. Nobody said it but you. :)
What we need to discuss is brake pads and shoes.
They would actually have different curves if they were different, or, more to the point, if people *believed* they were different.
For example, if you thought an EE pad was shit (as I did), then it would be worthless to you at any price, even at free. But if you thought an EE pad could be as good as an FF pad at braking, then the curve is completely different.
At the moment, the only logical conclusion anyone can scientifically make, is that all pads we can buy the USA are 'about the same' (give or take) because we have no way of telling them apart if we had both in our hands (or on the web).
In the end, Clare did say pretty much to get any shoe that "says" it meets OEM Quality - so that means all OEM Quality shoes should have the same demand curve.
This is only enginering, logic, and economics. No black art should be involved in buying brake pads and shoes.
"I think price is not an indication of anything other than what the marketing can make people pay. It's certainly not an indication of quality."
Do you really think that a prime steak has the same price as a choice steak, or a select grade steak? That a top quality 10" chef's knife from Henckel, Wusthoff, Misono doesn't reflect that quality and require a much higher price than the $5 10" chef knife at the discount store? The prices are correlated to the quality of the product. The same applies to brake pads, certainly to some extent.
Price is never directly related to quality.
Well duh! And there is a difference in brake pads!
It's no different than steaks or chef knives. There is a curve for a prime steak, there is a curve for a select steak. There is a curve for an entry level brake pad that wears fast, doesn't last very long, doesn't have the best fade performance, creates a lot of duct, etc. There is a curve for pads that have better performance in one or more of those area and they cost more.
Just like the demand is different for a brake pad that doesn't create dust, one that lasts longer, etc.
You did:
"Price is never directly related to quality. Price is only a function of demand. "
Price is only a function of demand within the demand curve for a specific brake pad. Once you change the brake pad, say to one that doesn't create dust, it's an entirely different demand curve and it will typically be priced at a premium. And that statement you made is still wrong, price is not only a function of demand, it's a function of supply too.
And so can freaking brake pads, for the same reason.
You didn't understand a single word I said. Either that, or you just want to argue.
We agree on the curves being *different* for things that are perceived to be different.
If a tire to a billion people is NOT a commodity (there doesn't seem to be a word for the opposite of a commodity), then each one has a certain demand curve.
If those same tires *are* considered a commodity to another billion people, then those tires, to those people, have a *different* (lumped together as one) commodity-based demand curve.
Either you understand that, or you just want to argue for argument's sake. I am done with arguing what is in *every* Economics textbook on the planet.
I can't teach you an entire course in Economics 101 in just a Usenet thread. You either understand the basics, or you don't.
It's marketing's job to increase *perception* of value.
If you like beef and don't like pork, then the curves are different. If you don't care, and if it's all just "meat" to you, then they're not.
This is extremely basic stuff covered in the first weeks of class.
Funny remark coming from the guy where Clare and others here have told you that you're the one who just wants to argue and can't be educated, even after they've made 20 posts trying.
Not just "perceived", for things that ARE different. A better performing brake pad is typically more expensive to produce, which makes the supply curve different. It has a different demand curve from customers and the balance point where supply and demand meet reflects that in a HIGHER market price for the pads with the better performance.
And why then would this not be true of brake pads too? Tires are optimized for various performance characteristics and there are tires that cost more that perform better than cheap tires. Same thing with brake pads. But according to you, performance and price are never correlated.
I understand economics perfectly. And I understand brake pads enough to know that THEY AREN'T ALL THE SAME COMMODITY ITEM.
Then why did you say this:
"I think price is not an indication of anything other than what the marketing can make people pay. It's certainly not an indication of quality."
Do you think you can manufacture the best performing brake pads for the same price as the most basic ones? That consumers value the two the same? Good grief.
It's just like the steak and chef knife examples I gave you. Good grief, Clare has explained over and over to you that there are substantial and important differences in brake pad choices. You came in here with the angle that it's all about the coefficient of friction. It's been pointed out to you that there are many other characteristics that differentiate pads, yet now you want to segue into economics and claim that they are all the same, so price and those characteristics have no relationship. It's just that you want to make them all the same to justify your foolish remark:
"I think price is not an indication of anything other than what the marketing can make people pay. It's certainly not an indication of quality."
Quality isn't even the right term here, because strictly speaking from a manufacturing perspective, quality is delivering a product that meets the specification, on time. You could have a product spec that has a tolerance of +/- 10 thousandths of an inch in a dimension and one that has a tolerance of +/- 1 thousandth. If all the product coming out of those two different lines meets the production spec, then it's all quality product, good product, as far as quality measurement goes.
What makes one pad cost more is differences in the composition and manufacturing which results in different performance parameters, which to you and customers could be loosely called "quality", in layman's terms.
The curves would always be separate demand curves, they are two different products.
Only if it's sold as mystery meat that can be either beef or pork.
And sadly you didn't learn economics any better than the technical details of brake pads.
You read somewhere? If you understand how ABS systems operate you would
*inherently know* the answer, not just from *reading it somewhere*.
The fact that you *don't know if the answer you read was true* proves that you are starting from a very low knowledge base and should stay away from brakes, steering, suspension, even cars in general, until you rectify this *knowledge deficit*.
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