Limestone

[Perri Morgan]

"Eigenvector" wrote in news:sMWdncnwgoEtUAPZnZ2dnUVZ [e-mail]:

Hmmm. This might be something. The other thing that the stained areas have in common with the soapy areas is that since they're one and the same, they both remain wet longer than, for example, the walls or the floor. And I'm on well water, without a whole house filter or water softener.

Thanks for the website! I need to learn more about this whole well and septic business anyhow, having been on city water for years. I know that the well was tested right after I moved in, but I have no idea what they found. They just said that it was good to go -- but I'll bet they retain those testing records down at the county inspector's office.

Thanks again.

[Perri Morgan]

Goedjn wrote in news: [e-mail]:

As a matter of fact, I do -- lots of them! It hadn't even occurred to me to try different substances that I'm using on the tile scraps.

What a great idea. I can't believe I didn't think of it myself. Thanks!

[Perri Morgan]

"Eigenvector" wrote in news:--udncv77tMecQPZnZ2dnUVZ [e-mail]:

Actually, it kind of does look like that, except mine are small flat squares on a shower stall floor and they look a lot safer! ;-)

I guess I must have manganese in my water. Do you know if it's a corrosive agent? I'm wondering why the luster on the affected tiles has disappeared as well.

I doubt the folks at Yosemite would be interested in my bathroom as a tourist destination. What a great photograph.

[Goedjn]

Probably because your limestone was dyed.

[Eigenvector]

I don't know anything about manganese staining. It's really just a metal that is common in most living things and in water so its a pretty common culprit in staining of metals, porcelain, and tiles - espcially in areas with lots of minerals in the water - well water would be a source for sure.

As to whether or not this is the source of your problem - I don't know. All I wanted to was give you a possible lead for you to research - and since it's pretty common there has got to be lots of people who have solved it. I've never had to deal with it, but I would imagine you would remove manganese the same way you would remove other metallic stains.

It's not a corrosive, so it wouldn't have damaged the finish on your tiles, although perhaps in forming the oxide the manganese robbed the tiles of something and pitted them - making it look dull and dingy.

Again, I'm no expert on the subject, I was just making a suggestion as a place to start looking. I hope it helped.

[EXT]

Throughout this thread, you keep mentioning that the staining is where you used a soap product. Keep in mind that soap while being alkaline it is a fat product made from animal or vegetable fats or oils -- grease. This grease will soak into the pores of limestone and discolour it. Try rubbing some cooking fat on a hidden area and see the change. Old, rancid grease will darken, trap dirt and change the look of the area. I think you should try, again in a hidden area, a strong detergent cleanser, cover it with a plastic sheet to prevent it from drying out for a few hours, then rinse and scrub toughly a few times and see if it will remove the stain. I have seen similar stains on "cultured marble" shower pans, it takes a lot of work to remove and then it promptly comes back when it is used because the surface is porous.

[Perri Morgan]

"Eigenvector" wrote in news:N6CdncQof7I0nQLZnZ2dnUVZ [e-mail]:

Yes, but it's certainly worth a call to the county. I remember they ran through a number of things when they were telling me what they found in my well water, but since they said it was safe, I didn't pay much attention. There must be something there.

That's what I was hoping to find here, and you've given me a great place to start, for which I'm grateful.

That's exactly how they look, and perhaps there's some other mineral in the well water that IS corrosive -- so I'll get the whole report while I'm at it. Thanks again. You've been a terrific help.

[Robert Gammon]

Once you have successfully cleaned an area, the stone then needs a sealer to help it resist further attacks by mold, chemical cleaners, etc.

My understanding is that most stone installers recommend periodic resealing for long life of the beautiful finish. Kitchen counters are a notable example as we gets lots of food, juices, spices, and cleaning agents applied.

[Robert Gammon]

I will soon build a house on a well and septic. Water testing and an appropriate softener will be added (Hydrogen sulfide and hardness are common for the area, 90 ft down or 600 ft down). I expect to also add a whole house RO so that Hot water, and all cold water are as close to bottled water as possible.

[Robert Gammon]

Luster gone is also a good clue, get it all clean, and then seal as recommended by local stone tile experts Unsealed tile, depending on stone composition, may lose its luster.

[Stubby]

My guess is that the stain is potassium permanganate, KMnO4. Use oxalic acid to remove it. Bartenders' Friend and Stainless Steel Cleaner (spray) contain oxalic acid. You can probably buy a few ounces at a pharmacy or chemical supply house.

Perri Morgan wrote:

[James "Cubby" Culbertson]

Is your water discolored at all? Usually manganese will cause your water to look grey or black. Iron will appear rust colored. Chances are if you have iron, you've got manganese but that's not always the case. A simple water test will verify both. Cheers, cc

[Perri Morgan]

"EXT" wrote in news:449f047b$0$229$ [e-mail]:

The alkaline nature of soap is what led me to believe that was the cause to start with, though I'm intrigued by the discussion of minerals in my well water. I've got some scraps, though, so I can try this on one of those as well to see if I can duplicate the condition.

If I'm able to get any of the staining out, will repeated applications of sealer keep it from re-occurring?

[Perri Morgan]

Robert Gammon wrote in news:jZFng.53515$ [e-mail]:

Yes, that has been recommended, but I'm reluctant to apply any more sealer for fear that whatever the cause, I might be sealing it into the stone. But as soon as I come to a resolution, I plan to start sealing more frequently than I did this first year.

Thanks for your response.

[Perri Morgan]

Robert Gammon wrote in news:a1Gng.53517$ [e-mail]:

This whole well and septic business is new to me, having lived on city water all my life, and it's been a challenge. I omitted the water filter and softener after the county told me that it was unnecessary; now I wish I'd bitten the bullet on the cost and included it at the beginning. I plan to do so now, as in addition to whatever minerals may be damaging my stone, the water seems to have a lot of calcium in it and it's a chore to clean; also, when washing the car, if I don't get every drop of rinse water dried off immediately, it spots.

Good luck to you on your new home. This was the first one I built, and I'd rather stick pins in my eyes than go through it again -- but I know of many others who thoroughly enjoy the process.

[Perri Morgan]

Stubby wrote in news:vPydnSMow8cXpALZnZ2dnUVZ [e-mail]:

Can I try using the stainless steel cleaner that I use for my appliances or do the pharmacy or chemical supply formulas contain a higher concentration?

[Perri Morgan]

"James \\"Cubby\\" Culbertson" wrote in news:DLSdnapxMKu0yQLZnZ2dnUVZ [e-mail]:

No, the water isn't discolored at all, though there is some very fine black silt in it that I can see if I leave water sitting for any length of time.

[Goedjn]

You can *TRY* anything you like. The problem is, you used limestone, and anything that's likely to chemically remove the stain is likely to chemically remove the limestone, faster.

[m Ransley]

Bleach does nothing more than kill mold , it does not "bleach out" limestone or change its color from when it was cut. You said the sponge "Bleaced out" the area, well all it did was clean and kill mold, nothing more harmfull than that. Stone is porus and remains wet, mold grows where conditions are right, like in your shower. So go get your laundry bleach and pour some on, you have thought this out to death and the answer is simple, Bleach.

[NeedleNose]

Once you clean the limestone to the best you are able, then you must seal. The pros use a sealant called POROUS PLUS, and it goes for about $90 for a gallon, which will last you the lifetime of the bath. It is somewhat toxic so be careful. But, my experience is some of the mold works its way into the stone and is never compeltely cleaned. As well, the surface can be harmed, and then you may need a pro to buff it with a refinisher/polisher. Isn't limestone FUN? looks fab when new though.