Led on but switch off

Where would it go, and what good would it do? It's there to sense the operation of the load's switch.

I have some ceiling boxes with TWO hot wires, one switched and the other always on. This is for a ceiling fan, where the wall switch is just for the light. The fan uses its own switch. Could you have something like that, and used thw wrong wire?

It's connected to the hot wire going to the load. Where's the detour?

The neutral is for use with switches (like a timer or home automation device) that require a little power themselves. Some can get that power through the load, but that does not work well when the load is something other than an incandescent bulb.

There are two types of X-10 or similar devices. One type uses the path through the load for a small current to power the devices circuitry, eg the RF receiver. That small current poses no issues with incandescent and similar loads, but if it's an LED or CFL, then it probably will flicker or partially light. Those devices just use two wires, no neutral. An example is an X-10 wall switch. The advantage is that it can go into any switch location, it does not use a neutral.

The other type uses the neutral so that it doesn't have any current flowing through the load when the device is off. An example of that is the X-10 appliance module that plugs into a receptacle and then the load plugs into it. It gets it's power between hot and neutral at the receptacle. Like the other poster said, it uses a relay for the load, there is no current in the load when it's off.

The code has been updated to require a neutral at all switch locations, that will allow switches that connect to the neutral to be used, eliminating the problems with LED, CFL flickering or partially lighting with the switches that don't use a neutral.

Yes, it used to be simple in the house. Just a normal switch to turn a light off and on. Maybe a few 3 way switches. Now we are starting to see many installing the 'smart speakers' and other devices. Just say 'Alexa turn on the light'. The smart switches need the hot and neutral to power them. There are fewer incadescent bulbs being used.

Many houses used to have the wiring going over head to the light fixtuer. From there a hot wire was ran to the wall switch and back to the light. No easy way to retro fit a smart switch powered by the AC. Some have came out with batteries that have to be changed every so often.

It is to support "smart" switching devices without using the ground for a neutral.

U/L used to let devices "leak" 500 micro amps or so into the ground, enough to drive CMOS but no more.

Sothere is a neutral available for "smart switches" for one - and to avoild the ambiguity of having a live white return.

You don't understand - On a relayed remote control the remote control and the controlled load are on separate circuit segnents. The control circuitry gets power from the black wire to the white wire - and the load gets power through the relay from the black wire to the unswitched white neutral. The control and the load are in parallel.

On the electronically switched unit the contol circuitry runs off the power that flows through the load - it is effectively in SEIES with the load. The power required to operate the control flows through the load. On an incandescent lamp that current is so low there is virtually no voltage drop across the resistance of the cold filament, and therefore virtually no power is dissipated and the liamp does not glow.

On an LED lamp the electronics of the lamp have a fixed voltage drop that is not dependent on current flow - and the led will glow at VERY low current - so the low current flowing through the controller lights the light . If the switch has a neutral wire the current does not flow through the load - but on a switch drop loop on a 2 wire cable there is no neutral - - - - -

thank you and to the others that replied. m

Got new switches. Report on saturday or so

The white is supposed to be the hot feed to the switch, the return is black. (or some other "ungrounded conductor" color)

I have used enough X10 switches of different types to know that there IS current through the load when the switch is off. Also, I've seen schematic diagrams (such as for an appliance module) that show the path past the relay for this current.

A receptacle module causes less trouble with this, but it is still NOT free of load current when off. I have 2 of those in use now, which require additional load resistors because of this (one controls a CFL, the other a LCD TV with LED backlight).

It doesn't automatically eliminate it, when you consider existing wiring.

I found several of those around here, when I installed ceiling fans. The box would have a bundle of black wires and a bundle of white wires. The black bundle would usually have one white (for the switch loop) in it.

Could you have not tried it?

I just got out an appliance module and connected a string of cheap Christmas lights. When the module is "off" the lights still glow (although more dimly than when on).

The usual "solution" I saw on the home automation newsgroup was to add an incandescent light in parallel. It is enough of a load to reduce the voltage below the LED threshold (this is 30 LEDs in series).

BTW, If I had designed the X10 appliance modules, what you said would be true (off would actually be off). It isn't.

I don't know the code now.

Way back it was common to use the same wire that had a black and white, bare wire for everything. So going to the wall switch you would have the black, a white that should be marked to black usually by tape and the bare. When that wire gets back to the junction box, the white wire should be marked black. The black marking may or may not be done depending on how sloppy the electrician and inspectors are.

That is because the black ( hot ) wire goes to the switch and is broken to cut off the current and back to the light. A netural wire should not be switched.

I am finally able to answer my question about the Google/Alexia type modules. At least for one type. The modules came in and the ones I got are round and plug into the wall socket, then you plug your device to that. They do have a relay and do switch off all the power. I had a '60 watt equivelent' LED bulb pluged into it and it does not glow at all. Putting a digital meter on the socket and nothing else I get 122 volts while on and 1.3 volts while off. Not sure exectally where the

Again, only with some of the devices, eg a wall switch. There is no current through the load with the appliance modules, when it's off.

I have 2 of those in use now, which