Led on but switch off

[trader_4]

Since X-10 is made by anyone, cheap crap, from China, who knows what each one does. But the essential concept is that there is no reason for any current to flow in the load with an appliance module. It's plugged into a receptacle and has the neutral available to keep the X-10 stuff running. The X-10 appliance modules I've used make a distinctive click as the relay closes, so what would the purpose be to going around the relay and providing some small current to the load all the time? It would clearly require some extra circuitry and I don't see the possible reasoning.

[gfretwell]

Not that long ago, there was not a requirement to reidentify the white wire in a switch loop. That is where the standard of using the white for the hot in the loop started. Then at the light the user would be presented with a black (switched) wire for the luminaire and the normal white neutral. It was always polite to reidentify this wire but not required.

The rule changed in 1999 and now you have to reidentify it. Since adoption by the AHJ can take years, there are probably still houses built in 2002-3 that were still under the 96 code.

[Clare Snyder]

Well, both of my appliance modules work perfectly with both LED and CF lamps. These are plug in modules, not hardwired switch replacements.

The same issues exist with occupancy sensor light switches too. Some work without a neutral. Some don't. Some won't switch LEDs reliably - the ones with a neutral DO word significantly better.

[Clare Snyder]

My "appliance module" works fine. My "lamp module" makes the lights glow - as does my Noma outdoor electronic timer for the christmas lights. My modules are X10 Powerhouse, RCA Home Control and GE - The only Lamp control is X10- - the rest are "appliance modules" - a mix of manufacturers.. Connecting a high impedence VOM across the outlet of an appliance module with it turned off registers 0.0 volts. Doing the same on the lamp control module reads 83.2 volts. The "appliance modules" are 3 wire (grounded) while the lampmodules are 2 wire (polarized)

The volt-meter readings pretty much prove my thesis.

[Clare Snyder]

A minor correction to your statement - A load should not be controlled by switching a neutral. No problem with a DPST switch which switches BOTH power and neutral (as is done on all "double insulated" appliances)

[Clare Snyder]

I believe marking was required in CANADIAN code as far back as at least 1969. I know when working with my dad back then I had to tape them. Black heat shrink tubing made the job easier - as did using electric heating cable (220 volt) (red/black) for switch drops in later years.

[gfretwell]

It was required for things other than switch loops here too (240v circuits mostly). The 99 change added switch loops to the requirement. Two wire cable without a white wire was pretty rare, particularly on a residential sparky's truck. That is why they allow reidentifying the white wire in a cable. You can't do it if you are pulling discrete conductors. You need to use the appropriate color wire until you get up to 4 ga when anything but black is harder to find. I do have some #1 in red, black and white tho so it is not impossible to get.

[Clare Snyder]

Electric heat was pretty common in residential use, so a residential sparky could be expected to have the cable available - but it was odten AWG12 instead of 14 - - - Discrete wire in residential use here in Ontario is excedingly rare outside of large MURBs

[gfretwell]

Typically 240v 15&20a loads get wired with garden variety 2 wire Romex and the white is reidentified. They might run 10/3 to a water heater and cut off the white wire, just because they don't carry 10/2. That was a non issue with dryers and ranges since 250.50 (250-50) always said you were using an (insulated) neutral as a ground so you were already running a 3 wire cable. Using 2 wire and the bare ground for the neutral was never allowed. They used to make cables with no bare ground but that stopped in the 50s - early 60s time frame.

Across the lake from you in Chicago, pipe was required in residential but now Romex is creeping in. I think the suburbs were using Romex for years tho. A nice compromise for residential is smurf tube. You get most of the advantages of pipe with a much easier installation and not a whole lot higher cost. I am fixing to exploit that in my addition as we speak when I add another switch to one of my 3 way loops. I am going to have to shove another conductor down the tube in one run (if I didn't pull a spare to begin with).

[Clare Snyder]

Red jacket "heatex" cable appears to be a Canadian oddity

[gfretwell]

If I saw red jacketed cable it would say "fire alarm cable" to me. We3 have pretty much settled on white (14ga), yellow (12ga) and orange (10ga) for NM cable. MC cable gets stripes on it indicating the color of the conductors inside or some other designations like red for alarm cable by at least one manufacturer (AFC).

[Mark Lloyd]

[snip]

I found an online schematic of an appliance module. Notice what is connected to the HOT side of the output (the relay is not the only thing).

[snip]

[trader_4]

I don't see a link to the schematic.

[Clare Snyder]

Of course not - but check the scematic - is the "not the only thing" part IN SERIES with the terminals of the relay???????. Is it in series with the load with the relay contacts open?????

Forward the link to the schematic

[Pat]

I have used X-10 modules for nearly all of the 40 years since they were introduced. Even though they were relay based, the appliance modules did send a small amount of current through the load. This was NOT to power the device, but rather to sense if the load was there. You could turn a module on by sending the appropriate X-10 command to it -or- by turning the load off then on. That was a great idea except power glitches would often cause an appliance module to turn on unintentionly. There were many articles written about how to disable the feature. I can't remember the exact details, but you cut out a particular diode or resistor. After the mod, the module could only be controlled via X-10 signals and no current flowed through the load when off. That was the whole story for decades until CCFLs and LEDs came along causing the sensing current to become a serious issue. I think they started producing appliance modules without the sensing feature for that reason, but I never bought any that way. So, getting back to the post I am responding to... What schematic? One from the late 70s? 80s? 90s? 2000's. I am sure there were many slightly different designs along the way. Pat

[trader_4]

Mark just made a post where he said he had found a schematic and seemed to think he included a link, but there was none. For an appliance module, that we agree has a relay in it, what would the purpose be of having something go around the relay to provide a small current to the load all the time? And if that's so, that current must be much smaller than the current in the X-10 switches and similar, that powers them so that they can have the receiver powered. Otherwise the appliance modules would also light up CFL, LEDs, etc and at least the ones I've used did not do that.

[Clare Snyder]

The schematic the poster claimed to have checked. And the only X10 units I have experienced problems with switching non-incandescent lamp loads with wwere lamp modules, not appliance modules - going back 30 years or so. I'm sure all of my current devices are over 25 years old - and some DEFINITELY over 30.

[Mark Lloyd]

[snip]

Not just lights. I had a TV that turned itself back on a few seconds after the module was turned off. There was a definite click from the module as it turned back on. That was the reason I added the "offer" plug (a slight additional load).

[Clare Snyder]

That #3 circuit was optional - local current sense - and not enabled (or installed, even) in many versions.

[gfretwell]

That 1n4004 (3) is the part someone here said you remove if you want to eliminate that feature.