My guess would be that the marketing departments have calculated that consumers don't want to pay the cost for an actual D cell NiMH, and thusly base their decision on cost as opposed to stored energy. I'm sure that a part of the calculation includes revenue lost by people not buying throwaways, though.
How do the prices of energizer NiMH AA and D compare to legitimate brands' AA and D? Are the energizer NiHM D cells priced like a big AA cell, or are they at a price point which you would expect them to charge for a legitimate NiHM D cell? That would probably answer the question.
In any case, both "caveat emptor" and "there's one born every minute" come to mind.
It gets tiring to have to know everything about everything to avoid being cheated.
I think C & D battery sales are becoming such a small percentage of total battery sales that a company like Eveready is just not going to bother with making every chemistry in every size, so they just use AA internals in their C & D cells for NiMH. Can you even buy a C & D NiMH charger at the big box stores?
I used to work for Duracell. From a business perspective given by the executives at the time, it was a good idea for Energizer and Duracell to jump on the rechargeables bandwagon and get some sales, but it was not a good idea to cannibalize their own business with high capacity rechargeables.
My D cell flashlights converted to LED last so much longer and are often much brighter. I have a D cell Maglite as long as my forearm that will produce a lot of light for a very long time with the LED conversion and doesn't need batteries as often. You can still use it to crack someone's head open without any concern that it will knock out the bulb. ^_^
I do online ordering not because I'm lazy but because it's hard for me to walk around a big box store. I try to go the little places to buy just about anything because I don't have to walk so far but I'm getting stronger and my visiting nurse yells at me for exerting myself. ^_^
That must have changed because they just came out with a new line of LSD NiMHs that are competitively priced and higher capacity than Eneloops... if they get some positive reports from CPF I might try some. They're also stocking at least the AAs in lots of stores, although my local Staples is completely out (not sure if they are selling fast or just restocking slow)
In any case, that is not an unwelcome development... but the lack of good options in the mass market for C, D, and 9V is still frustrating. Still waiting on the guy to get back to me re: the Chinese eBay adapters...
Of course, look on the bright side... 10-15 years ago this discussion would have gone something like "I've heard that these adapters are available in China, but I haven't a clue how to go about getting them..."
Then again on the unbuttered side, we used to be a nation of innovators and most of the time when I say something like "gee, someone oughta make (something)" and it turns out that it *is* made, it's generally made halfway around the world, not here.
I just gave you a link where you can get them for much less. Didn't include it again, since you don't want to listen, just talk. Can't see where you have a point at all, unless you want them sold in your grocery, big box, gas station. Ain't gonna happen.
Assuming parallel of course. I wouldn't be using primaries, but Eneloops or similar anyway. I understand that conventional wisdom says not to parallel up cells but Sanyo seems to think enough of their Eneloops that that is exactly what they do for their Japan market C and D "cells" - they're actually 4xAAA (for C) and 3xAA (for D) cells inside a larger casing. Additionally I have a Fenix flashlight that uses 8xAAs in a 4S2P arrangement (approximately 2D size battery carrier that inserts into the body, clearly 4S2P as the voltage at the contacts is
4.8V and the light will run on only four cells if inserted in the right places in the carrier.) Really no effective difference between that and using four parallel AA to D adapters in series in a 4D Mag with two AAs inserted in each adapter.
From what I've read online and seen myself when running break-in cycles on the Eneloops that I have, they appear to be very consistent out of the box... both remaining charge after sitting on the shelf on initial discharge and measured capacity on the break in cycle are very consistent cell to cell, so it seems like it should be relatively safe to run cells in parallel adapters as long as they are from the same production lot (or matched based on measured capacity) and are kept together as a lot in use. I'm also using a charger with independent channels to prolong life.
See above; it doesn't seem to be that bad. Yes, if you mix and match primaries out of a mess tossed into a box, I'd say that *is* a bad idea, but if used properly, I don't see the downside other than the slight loss in capacity relative to a purpose-built C or D cell. And then you have standardized on only two cell sizes for all your devices decreasing your chances of not having the cell you need ready to go when you really need it. (and of course you could still use C or D primaries or NiMH as well.)
I meant that I always buy my rechargeables online (because I get better quality products for less total cost, shipping included generally), except for this one instance where I got a heads up that the Duraloops were inexpensive, not that I'm buying them daily.
The average consumer wants an overpriced, marginally usable to unusable product?
Based on the Amazon reviews, it looks like that is an incorrect statement. Appears that lots of people are picking them up thinking they can run baby swings, jobsite radios, etc. off of them and either didn't look at the fine print or didn't realize how 2500 mAh compared to a traditional alkaline cell, and subsequently felt ripped off. As I would...
Well, that's the thing, a Tenergy Centura C cell actually costs LESS than an Energizer Recharge C cell despite the former being what you would reasonably expect to be buying in terms of capacity, and the latter not (and the Tenergy being a modern LSD design as well.) The Tenergy D's cost only a little more than the Energizer Ds but the difference in performance is even more dramatic between the two.
Hey, I was able to read the package and determine that these were not really a useful product. I figured I would let you all know because they only print the capacity on the cells themselves, nowhere on the packaging and it's pretty well hidden on the web site.
That's an entirely different situation. When they manufacture the batteries, they're able to match the cells. Being from the same lot and matched from the beginning, they can be sure they will remain in the same state of charge. That *can't* be done with an adapter that the public is free to change cells at their whim. If someone puts a dead cell in with a fresh one, it's lawyer time.
Dangerous.
A cell that's five years old, with 500 cycles on it will behave as a new one?
It's a *horrible* idea.
That's *exactly* what people will do.
Then you've admitted my point.
Certainly. It's good enough - Existence theorem.
It's certainly not. You're talking about a different target market.
Did they read? You did, why can't they? Why are you still pissed? Sheesh, you really must lead a stressful life.
Why? Anyone using such an adapter should know the difference between proper and improper use. It's a lot easier to buy flashlights that use far more dangerous cell combinations... e.g. the venerable Surefire 6P which uses two CR123As in series (and wouldn't you know it, I bought a used one once that when I looked inside had two different brand cells inside... you better believe I disposed of them TDS) or more modern stuff using multiple 18650s. If you don't match your cells in those, the potential consequences are going to be a lot worse than the busted flashlight that you'll get with mismatched alkalines or NiMHs, it can literally "vent with flame" in your hands.
Personally, I don't have any desire to have a device that uses multiple
18650s or other lithium-ion rechargeables unless I have no other choice, and if I ended up in that situation, I'd definitely be using cells with protection circuits.
Not really, NiMHs don't blow up, or even vent/leak very often. And I am using alternately a matched set of Eneloops or a matched set of Maha Imedions.
No, but if you keep the same set of cells together for their lifetime, they should age roughly the same. And even if they don't, when charged on a smart charger with individual channels that'll tell you voltage, current, and total charge for each cell, you'll be able to pick out the ones that are potential problems and either replace them with ones that are a better match to the others or just know that it's time for a whole new set.
Seems to me that it's actually preferable to using the Eneloop C and D "cells" (really batteries) in practice, as you're able to separate the cells for charging.
Those people are not using them properly, then.
I was never arguing with you over that to begin with, it is just disappointing to me that even if I'm willing to pay a slight premium for convenience that I do not have the option of buying acceptable quality products in local stores.
But it's *not* good enough... Even if you are using an ancient device that was designed around old school carbon-zinc (not alkaline) primary cells you would still experience severely reduced runtime with the Energizers (whereas either the adapter/AA combo or a purpose built NiMH D cell would either approximate or even improve upon the original performance.)
More disgusted than pissed. It's a major corporation basically attempting to trick consumers into buying an inferior product. An ethical organization would not do that.
However, Battery Junction does in fact commercially sell such adapters, they're just really expensive (over $15 each) as well as 14500 cells... and there's easier ways to mismatch Li-Ions than buying an adapter that will allow you to parallel up a not very common size.
Oh, fire, property damage, death. Maybe even cats and dogs living together.
Nope. You even said that the public doesn't know what they're buying. There is no way to prevent improper use so it is expected that someone will use it improperly. What's more benign that HOT coffee?
What precisely is wrong with series LiIon? Two cells should be easily controllable.
...but that's just you.
Nonsense. Anything with that energy density is a fire waiting to happen.
With an aftermarket adapter there is no guarantee of that. The person selling the adapter has liability (sue everyone and let the court sort it out).
Complete nonsense. There is no danger from well matched cells. After all, that's what a bigger cell is - more of the same chemistry.
Irrelevant. Coffee held between the knees in a car isn't "using it properly", either.
Why do YOU think _your_convenience_ trumps others interests?
Your choice. Good enough.
You must have a sky high BP if retail sales marketing bothers you so much.
Not with carbon-zinc, alkaline or NiMH cells, unless you set up a scenario where an abused cell is directly exposed to a flammable material. The cells themselves will not burn or explode.
But the worst consequence of abuse, barring really spectacular stupidity, is far more benign - merely dead cells and worst case, a damaged device from leaking cells.
Both lithium primaries and Li-Ion rechargeables, unlike carbon-zinc, alkaline, or NiMH, have a non-zero probability of "venting with flame" which is battery geek speak for "go boom."
Of course, because devices that use multiple Li-Ions exist and are available for sale. Even the Tesla battery pack I believe is built up from a shedload of 18650s. I hope the electronics guys at Tesla know what they're doing!
You're simply wrong; different chemistries have different risks associated with them. NiMHs are about the safest type of cell out there; they vent/leak a lot less often than even alkalines and "venting with flame" is not possible.
Again, the only way you could possibly start a fire with a NiMH is to short circuit the cell(s) and have either the cell(s) or the wire connecting them in direct contact with flammable material. If they short inside a handheld device like a flashlight, the body of the flashlight will get warm until the cells are discharged. Do NOT try that with 18650s; that would turn your flashlight into a literal pipe bomb.
And yet as I pointed out in another post, they are in fact available for sale from a legitimate retail (OK, mail-order) channel in the US, they're just really expensive for what they are.
Not nonsense, and I didn't say it was a danger. You might theoretically be able to eke out a few more cycles out of the cells if you separated them for charging, is all.
Because to me, it does. As I assume to you, your convenience should be pretty high on your list of decision making criteria.
Most retail sales marketing *is* sleazy, dishonest and unpleasant.
This one goes farther than most, though - there's an implied fitness for purpose that the product doesn't deliver.
I just purchased an Eneloop package at Costco for $23 that included 8 AA batteries, 2 AAA, a couple each C and D adapters, and a charger. After pricing just the batteries locally and online, I went back and bought another package.
Sounds like a wise decision. I'm in the east, we don't have Costco. I did some thing like that with the flashlight packs at BJ's whole sale club in 1998 or so. I used Mini Mag as my daily "everything" light. It was almost cheaper to buy the minimag and three D cell combo pack with first set of alkalines.
Even though the C & D batteries "made" with the adapters have a relatively low capacity compared to true C & D NiMH batteries, I suspect that for most users it's not of great concern since they are going to recharge the batteries anyway, and they have a spare set ready to use.
I thought it was interesting that Sanyo was willing to do a low self-discharge NiMH. The reason for the self-discharge problem has been known for a long time, as has the solution. The problem is that the side effect of the solution is to reduce the capacity. So you have to do some good marketing to convince consumers that a 2000mAH cell is better than a 2800mAH cell at the same or lower price. It's like trying to convince someone to buy a digital camera based on high-ISO noise characteristics, not just the number of megapixels.
Costco is about the best place I've found for Eneloops. Also, the Sanyo charger is very good in terms of end of charge detection, using -?V and temperature. You just can't use it for NiCad AA cells though because NiCads have a different end of charge detection.
I think that one reason that you don't see more C & D NiMH batteries is that the chargers are rather large.
The best smart charger I've found is the Tenergy TN190 (I have the previous model the T6278). This is a better than the Maha or LaCrosse smart chargers. But the reality is, the Sanyo Eneloop charger will charge the batteries just as well, it just won't provide all the detailed information on the charge state, and there's no discharge function to attempt to revitalize problem cells. These higher end chargers provide a lot of information, and for a techie they're interesting, but the reality is that there's no real advantage to them. Just avoid super-low-end chargers with no end-of-charge detection.
Well actually there is one big difference between chargers. Sanyo's original Eneloop charger had four separate channels so you could charge
1, 2, 3, or 4 batteries. The newer ones charge in pairs so you can't charge an odd number of batteries. So if this is a concern, look for a charger with 4 independent channels.
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