My guess would be that the marketing departments have calculated that
consumers don't want to pay the cost for an actual D cell NiMH, and
thusly base their decision on cost as opposed to stored energy. I'm
sure that a part of the calculation includes revenue lost by people not
buying throwaways, though.
How do the prices of energizer NiMH AA and D compare to legitimate
brands' AA and D? Are the energizer NiHM D cells priced like a big AA
cell, or are they at a price point which you would expect them to charge
for a legitimate NiHM D cell? That would probably answer the question.
In any case, both "caveat emptor" and "there's one born every minute"
come to mind.
It gets tiring to have to know everything about everything to avoid
I think C & D battery sales are becoming such a small percentage of
total battery sales that a company like Eveready is just not going to
bother with making every chemistry in every size, so they just use AA
internals in their C & D cells for NiMH. Can you even buy a C & D NiMH
charger at the big box stores?
On 9/1/2013 8:46 PM, firstname.lastname@example.org wrote:
Well, that's the thing, a Tenergy Centura C cell actually costs LESS
than an Energizer Recharge C cell despite the former being what you
would reasonably expect to be buying in terms of capacity, and the
latter not (and the Tenergy being a modern LSD design as well.) The
Tenergy D's cost only a little more than the Energizer Ds but the
difference in performance is even more dramatic between the two.
Hey, I was able to read the package and determine that these were not
really a useful product. I figured I would let you all know because
they only print the capacity on the cells themselves, nowhere on the
packaging and it's pretty well hidden on the web site.
On 9/1/2013 8:43 PM, email@example.com wrote:
Assuming parallel of course. I wouldn't be using primaries, but
Eneloops or similar anyway. I understand that conventional wisdom says
not to parallel up cells but Sanyo seems to think enough of their
Eneloops that that is exactly what they do for their Japan market C and
D "cells" - they're actually 4xAAA (for C) and 3xAA (for D) cells inside
a larger casing. Additionally I have a Fenix flashlight that uses 8xAAs
in a 4S2P arrangement (approximately 2D size battery carrier that
inserts into the body, clearly 4S2P as the voltage at the contacts is
4.8V and the light will run on only four cells if inserted in the right
places in the carrier.) Really no effective difference between that and
using four parallel AA to D adapters in series in a 4D Mag with two AAs
inserted in each adapter.
From what I've read online and seen myself when running break-in cycles
on the Eneloops that I have, they appear to be very consistent out of
the box... both remaining charge after sitting on the shelf on initial
discharge and measured capacity on the break in cycle are very
consistent cell to cell, so it seems like it should be relatively safe
to run cells in parallel adapters as long as they are from the same
production lot (or matched based on measured capacity) and are kept
together as a lot in use. I'm also using a charger with independent
channels to prolong life.
See above; it doesn't seem to be that bad. Yes, if you mix and match
primaries out of a mess tossed into a box, I'd say that *is* a bad idea,
but if used properly, I don't see the downside other than the slight
loss in capacity relative to a purpose-built C or D cell. And then you
have standardized on only two cell sizes for all your devices decreasing
your chances of not having the cell you need ready to go when you really
need it. (and of course you could still use C or D primaries or NiMH as
I meant that I always buy my rechargeables online (because I get better
quality products for less total cost, shipping included generally),
except for this one instance where I got a heads up that the Duraloops
were inexpensive, not that I'm buying them daily.
The average consumer wants an overpriced, marginally usable to unusable
Based on the Amazon reviews, it looks like that is an incorrect
statement. Appears that lots of people are picking them up thinking
they can run baby swings, jobsite radios, etc. off of them and either
didn't look at the fine print or didn't realize how 2500 mAh compared to
a traditional alkaline cell, and subsequently felt ripped off. As I
That's an entirely different situation. When they manufacture the
batteries, they're able to match the cells. Being from the same lot
and matched from the beginning, they can be sure they will remain in
the same state of charge. That *can't* be done with an adapter that
the public is free to change cells at their whim. If someone puts a
dead cell in with a fresh one, it's lawyer time.
A cell that's five years old, with 500 cycles on it will behave as a
It's a *horrible* idea.
That's *exactly* what people will do.
Then you've admitted my point.
Certainly. It's good enough - Existence theorem.
It's certainly not. You're talking about a different target market.
Did they read? You did, why can't they? Why are you still pissed?
Sheesh, you really must lead a stressful life.
On 9/2/2013 1:29 PM, firstname.lastname@example.org wrote:
Why? Anyone using such an adapter should know the difference between
proper and improper use. It's a lot easier to buy flashlights that use
far more dangerous cell combinations... e.g. the venerable Surefire 6P
which uses two CR123As in series (and wouldn't you know it, I bought a
used one once that when I looked inside had two different brand cells
inside... you better believe I disposed of them TDS) or more modern
stuff using multiple 18650s. If you don't match your cells in those,
the potential consequences are going to be a lot worse than the busted
flashlight that you'll get with mismatched alkalines or NiMHs, it can
literally "vent with flame" in your hands.
Personally, I don't have any desire to have a device that uses multiple
18650s or other lithium-ion rechargeables unless I have no other choice,
and if I ended up in that situation, I'd definitely be using cells with
Not really, NiMHs don't blow up, or even vent/leak very often. And I am
using alternately a matched set of Eneloops or a matched set of Maha
No, but if you keep the same set of cells together for their lifetime,
they should age roughly the same. And even if they don't, when charged
on a smart charger with individual channels that'll tell you voltage,
current, and total charge for each cell, you'll be able to pick out the
ones that are potential problems and either replace them with ones that
are a better match to the others or just know that it's time for a whole
Seems to me that it's actually preferable to using the Eneloop C and D
"cells" (really batteries) in practice, as you're able to separate the
cells for charging.
Those people are not using them properly, then.
I was never arguing with you over that to begin with, it is just
disappointing to me that even if I'm willing to pay a slight premium for
convenience that I do not have the option of buying acceptable quality
products in local stores.
But it's *not* good enough... Even if you are using an ancient device
that was designed around old school carbon-zinc (not alkaline) primary
cells you would still experience severely reduced runtime with the
Energizers (whereas either the adapter/AA combo or a purpose built NiMH
D cell would either approximate or even improve upon the original
More disgusted than pissed. It's a major corporation basically
attempting to trick consumers into buying an inferior product. An
ethical organization would not do that.
On 9/2/2013 2:14 PM, Nate Nagel wrote:
<some stuff, because>
<some other stuff>
I just thought of one good argument for your position that a company
would open themselves up to personal injury lawsuits if they were to
market parallel 3xAA to D cell adapters. The special case of someone
shoving a bunch of mismatched, unprotected 14500 cells together.
However, Battery Junction does in fact commercially sell such adapters,
they're just really expensive (over $15 each) as well as 14500 cells...
and there's easier ways to mismatch Li-Ions than buying an adapter
that will allow you to parallel up a not very common size.
On 9/2/2013 3:00 PM, email@example.com wrote:
Not with carbon-zinc, alkaline or NiMH cells, unless you set up a
scenario where an abused cell is directly exposed to a flammable
material. The cells themselves will not burn or explode.
But the worst consequence of abuse, barring really spectacular
stupidity, is far more benign - merely dead cells and worst case, a
damaged device from leaking cells.
Both lithium primaries and Li-Ion rechargeables, unlike carbon-zinc,
alkaline, or NiMH, have a non-zero probability of "venting with flame"
which is battery geek speak for "go boom."
Of course, because devices that use multiple Li-Ions exist and are
available for sale. Even the Tesla battery pack I believe is built up
from a shedload of 18650s. I hope the electronics guys at Tesla know
what they're doing!
You're simply wrong; different chemistries have different risks
associated with them. NiMHs are about the safest type of cell out
there; they vent/leak a lot less often than even alkalines and "venting
with flame" is not possible.
Again, the only way you could possibly start a fire with a NiMH is to
short circuit the cell(s) and have either the cell(s) or the wire
connecting them in direct contact with flammable material. If they
short inside a handheld device like a flashlight, the body of the
flashlight will get warm until the cells are discharged. Do NOT try
that with 18650s; that would turn your flashlight into a literal pipe bomb.
And yet as I pointed out in another post, they are in fact available for
sale from a legitimate retail (OK, mail-order) channel in the US,
they're just really expensive for what they are.
Not nonsense, and I didn't say it was a danger. You might theoretically
be able to eke out a few more cycles out of the cells if you separated
them for charging, is all.
Because to me, it does. As I assume to you, your convenience should be
pretty high on your list of decision making criteria.
Most retail sales marketing *is* sleazy, dishonest and unpleasant.
This one goes farther than most, though - there's an implied fitness for
purpose that the product doesn't deliver.
On Fri, 30 Aug 2013 18:27:10 -0400, Nate Nagel wrote:
I used to work for Duracell. From a business perspective given by the
executives at the time, it was a good idea for Energizer and Duracell to
jump on the rechargeables bandwagon and get some sales, but it was not a
good idea to cannibalize their own business with high capacity
If space and time are curved, where do all the straight people come from?
That must have changed because they just came out with a new line of LSD
NiMHs that are competitively priced and higher capacity than Eneloops...
if they get some positive reports from CPF I might try some. They're
also stocking at least the AAs in lots of stores, although my local
Staples is completely out (not sure if they are selling fast or just
In any case, that is not an unwelcome development... but the lack of
good options in the mass market for C, D, and 9V is still frustrating.
Still waiting on the guy to get back to me re: the Chinese eBay adapters...
Of course, look on the bright side... 10-15 years ago this discussion
would have gone something like "I've heard that these adapters are
available in China, but I haven't a clue how to go about getting them..."
Then again on the unbuttered side, we used to be a nation of innovators
and most of the time when I say something like "gee, someone oughta make
(something)" and it turns out that it *is* made, it's generally made
halfway around the world, not here.
On 9/3/2013 3:47 PM, firstname.lastname@example.org wrote:
Wow, really? A little salty language is more offensive to you than a
major corporation deliberately ripping off consumers? I'm trying to
help you (collective) here, you know. Feel free to not read my posts.
Probably a P.L.L.C.F. female. Remember, they believe in freedom of
speech as long as it's only their speech. There is also that speech
control thing and Political Correctness where you can't say certain
words or you will lose your job and/or media empire. ^_^
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