How to remove pool drain cover 9 feet under water to check for a clogged pipe?

[SF Man]

I 'do' notice slight air bubbles coming out of the water going back into the pool.

What does a pool drain actually 'look' like (cut away view)?

What does it do? I 'thought' it was just a pipe ... with a 18-inch cover?

Is it more than that?

SWMBO ?

Yes. It has a cover. And a filter basket on the pool deck. But what else could make a pool pump not suck water when I move the valve to POOL ONLY versus SPA ONLY?

That is, the water flows perfectly when I'm in spa only mode (it empties the spa if I'd let it); but the water flows badly when I'm in pool only mode?

What else can it be other than a clog or a broken pipe (which I doubt 'cuz that would be ten feet underground)?

[SF Man]

Wow. I have no idea how a pipe would collapse. They're all UNDER the pool. But if it is, I agree, I'd live without.

Belatedly, I realized I can limp along with the inlet to the filtration pump set at half way between spa only and pool only ... so that there is half suction in both.

But it's sub optimal.

I'm heading to the dive shop to see if I can rent some tanks for a few weeks 'till I figure this out.

[Evan]

Wow...

Clearly you don't know enough about pools or water to really be maintaining one on your own without proper supervision...

Hire a company to take care of it for you...

If the drain line in the bottom of the pool has become compromised and you really really need for it to be fixed because of some sort of psychological defect being in play here, then the pool will have to be drained for that to happen... They aren't going to tunnel in from a shaft dug next to the pool to do repairs...

You are thinking on consumer grade time tables... A gasoline operated pump would have that 38,000 gallon pool empty in a little more than an hour or two...

With a 50,000 gallon tanker truck full of water, the pool will be filled as fast as the pump in the tank truck can pump the water out of the hose, not 100 days...

~~ Evan

[SF Man]

Well, two things aren't working (that I know of).

1. The suction from the pool drain (as opposed to the spa drain) is meager.

1. The two squirt pipes surrounding the pool drain are not operating (one bubbles air and a teeny tiny bit of water; the other is no operating).

From my understanding of how the pool works, these two squirters are tied to the filtration system (as opposed to the other dozen squirters which are tied to the cleaning system).

I 'think' it's a clog because the pool was filled with an inch of mud when I bought the place. I think the guys who cleaned it didn't open up the drains to look what was inside.

[SF Man]

Since I have sleep apnea, I can actually hold my breath a very long time, maybe two minutes or longer on the first dive.

But, this is going to take scores of dives.

So, by the thirtieth dive, I don't know if I can hold my breath for longer than a half minute or so.

Scuba seems the way to go. I've since found out that you don't need a card to rent tanks for a few weeks. They can look up your dive card status.

So, I'm going to go with scuba (renting or buying since this will take weeks of elapsed time since I don't know what I'm doing).

Now the problem is to ask people for advice if they've ever opened a drain. I know you can suck your bowels down there if you're not careful.

Any advice on to the best way to approach opening a drain?

[SF Man]

Interesting. That web page gave us NEW IDEAS!

Since the skimmers are not part of the filtration system, I can't use the first half of that web page's advice ... but ... the next part makes sense:

"The easiest way to remove a clog is to use a drain jet to force water against the clog to remove it. The direction of the flow of water should be opposite to the normal flow."

Basically, they put a garden hose drain jet inside the pump basket! I would never have thought about going from the pump basket! I was going to go from the drain on the bottom of the pool!

The drain basket, while being about 90 feet away from the pool drain, is at least very accessible!

I might even be able to try this method on the pool deck, right above the drain (but in air!) where the debris cannister and mesh bag sit!

This is a GREAT idea as I can access the lines from topside!

Worst case, the co2 gun they speak of (150 psi) might work also (I'll start looking to see where I can rent a c02 gun. I have a co2 tank for making soda so I have half the equipment already).

[SF Man]

This is not a normal pool. It's a self-cleaning pool (no vacuum).

So, the skimmers are unfiltered (except for baskets). The water for the skimmers starts at the skimmers, goes through a basket, then goes to the

2.2 horsepower cleaner pump basket, and then back to the pool via a dozen squirters built into the bottom of the pool. There is a set of automatic 'water valves' which rotate the squirters so that, over an 8 hour period, every inch of the pool is sprayed by the skimmer water.

But, the skimmers have nothing to do with the filtration system.

The filtration system starts at the bottom of the pool (and spa) and then goes to the 2.2 horsepower pump and then to the filter and then back to the pool.

THAT system is the one which has low water volume from the deep-end drain but good volume from the spa drain. So, I suspect a problem in the deep-end drain.

As a slight complication, there are two squirters dedicated to the deep end drain (to channel the final bit of debris directly to the deep end drain) which are also not working.

So, three things are bad:

1. The deep end drain seems about half of what it should be (compared to the spa drain)
2. The two deep-end squirters which are tied to the filtration system are not working.

[SF Man]

I did that already. Many times.

I go down and can hold my breath for a couple of minutes (I have sleep apnea so it's rather easy to hold my breath).

The problem is that it takes dozens of dives to remove the cover and inspect things.

I was looking for a simpler way.

One poster suggested using a garden hose on the filtration pump basket inlet (shoving water backward through the 90 feet of pipe to the other end of the pool). That might work.

Another idea is to shove that garden-hose drain thing into the topside debris cannister on the pool deck, just above the main drain. That may work also to blow the clog backward (I'd likely remove the drain cover for that to let the clog come out).

A third option is to buy or rent tanks for a few weeks and just go down, with weights, and spend the twenty or thirty minutes down there to figure out what is going on.

But, going down a dozen to three dozen times holding my breath seems like the hardest thing of all ... doesn't it?

[SF Man]

Hi Evan,

I'm sorry again for not being clear. I never said I knew anything about pools. I never owned a pool before. In fact, I never even wanted a pool. I simply bought a house at forclosure that had a pool filled with mud (and fish).

For about $400, a team cleaned it out and left. Then I filled it and now the drain isn't working right.

Of course I can hire someone to fix it but I don't have a job and the money is tight (big mortgage and huuuuuge taxes). The house was practically free but the maintenance is what is difficult.

So, the only way I can keep the house is to do all my own maintenance (I've already learned how to do roofing tiles, how to cut down large oak trees, how to clean the three heater blowers, how to plug the solar heater, etc.).

I thought that's what this newsgroup is all about.

Sorry for misleading you. I repeat, I don't know anything about pools. But, I can learn just as I learned how to fix my car which has never been to a mechanic and which is now 15 years old.

It just takes time (which is the one thing I have plenty of).

Thanks for understanding and helping out.

[SF Man]

Wow. Twenty thousand gallons an hour! 300 gallons a minute. 5 gallons a second. That's fast!

If I have to, I will drain the pool. But, I was hoping to try to figure out what the problem is BEFORE draining it.

In fact, if it's drained, then I can't even run the pump anymore. So, how does one TEST a pool drain which is now empty?

[chaniarts]

you can probably rent a snuba machine, and you don't need certification.

[Evan]

Yeah, apparently you have never seen the man-portable gasoline powered pumps that are used to drain out basements after a serious flood...

If you really wanted to go thermonuclear on it, a fire pump (like the ones in a fire truck) can provide 500 to 750 gallons per minute quite easily...

So, let's review what you have revealed so far --

-- You hired a company to clean out 1" of dirt and mud from the bottom of the pool...

-- You then filled the pool with water which took you somewhere on the order of ~100 days according to various replies you have made thus far...

-- You never had the pool inspected by a proper pool company BEFORE you filled it...

-- You have no idea whether or not the drain was functioning properly BEFORE you filled the pool with water...

-- You are unemployed yet you got a house for nearly nothing, and yet the maintenance of said home and its amenities costing any sort of money to deal with is not optimal ?

Wow...

There are so many issues there I will just leave them to you to deal with...

~~ Evan

[Pete C.]

I have a 3" 8HP pump that is rated at 385GPM, yes that's fast, and yes you have to have a place you can discharge all that water that can handle the flow rate.

I have no idea what a tanker of pool water costs, but renting some dive gear - tank, reg, mask and weight belt - is probably cheaper and more fun. No need for wetsuit, BC, snorkel or dive computer in a 9' pool. You want to be over weighted anyway so you can work without moving yourself around.

You would leave a foot or two of water in the pool.

[Pete C.]

Assuming the pool pipes are something like 2", bringing down a garden hose with one of the basic jet nozzles on the end should allow you to flush the mud out of the pipe as you push the hose further into the drain. You will of course have zero visibility in short order, so first hook a small guide rope from a drain screw up to the pool exit to make exit and re-entry easier.

[JimT]

That would have been helpful info in the OP. Yeah you might have a clogged drain. :-)

[MarkK]

If you go in the water to work on the drain while the pump is running, use extreme CAUTION.

You can become trapped by the suction, people have been killed this way....

Have buddy there to look out for you and shut down the pump if you get stuck...

Mark

[willshak]

SF Man wrote the following:

Can you rig up a backwash to the drain, either by water or air? Perhaps rerouting water from the pool pump or hooking up a shop vac and blowing air into the drain pipe?

[JIMMIE]

I took a look at my pool and I dont think it would take more than an hour to reconfigure my plumbing to backwash the drain. That said I find it possible bit not likely you have a drain that clogged, more likely the valve used to switch from spa to pool.

Jimmie

[trader4]

Are you saying that safety port is connected to the suction line along with the bottom drain? That would be the way I would think it should be because you don't want a single suction point to prevent someone from getting sucked onto the single suction point and drowning.

So, if that's the case, why would the pump run dry because of the bottom drain being clogged? It would have to be a clog affecting both the bottom drain AND the side suction point, no?

As for proceeding, it sounds a lot easier to me to do a test with water flowing from the pool pad via a garden hose attachement or similar than it is to dive for the bottom drain. You could also use compressed air as long as you make sure you keep the pressure low, eg 15psi or so.

[trader4]

Especially from Evan, who has proven to be a bit of a village idiot in the past. The questions SF is asking seem reasonable to me. Also, I've seen plenty of "expert" pool companies screw things up royally too.