Sigh. So, since there were a number of different manufacturers' saws,
they all paid? Whoever paid the most won top honors? And they did
that for however many magazines? Are there any other nefarious
woodworking conspiracies you'd care to share?
By your logic, any magazine that accepted advertising would be barred
from reviewing any of that manufacturer's products. That's a good
business model. Start a magazine and let me know how it works out.
From what I understand the SawStop also has a very good dust
collection system, and has other well thought out features. I've
never had my hands on one, but in general I've found Fine Woodworking
reviews to be reliable, and they liked it.
I'd have to check out the saw to see if the other features would make
double the price more agreeable. Since a table saw is such a major
shop investment an extra thousand or so isn't all that much. Think of
what people spend on cars and toys. They'll blow far more than an
extra thousand and not think twice.
I've looked them over (several times) at WoodCraft, and such. No doubt, it's
a fine saw. It was over twice the price of my Unisaw (two wings +
Biesemeyer), last year. No, it wasn't worth that much more.
It was more like $2000 more than my Unisaw. You can rationalize your way into
the poor house that way.
Don't get me wrong, I could have found a way to find the extra $1800-$2000, if
I *had* to, but I didn't. The Unisaw is a good saw, and if I didn't get the
deal on the Unisaw I would have bought a Grizz for a couple of hundred less
BTW, our vehicles are a 2000 Sable and a 2001 Ranger. ;-)
Every carpenter I've ever met on a construction site will tie back
the blade guard on a power circular saw. They have to set it upside
down after using it. I've seen a dumbass put one down and it took
off across the room because he forgot the guard was tied back.
Lee Valley has replaced saws in every store and shop with Saw Stop. Some
cabinet shops have done the same, as have some schools. If you think there
is a lot of downtime to replace a cartridge, check the downtime after a
Take a peek here. I was shocked at the number of accidents. Give the
average age, I'd say these were people
with experience too.
In 2003 the Consumer Product Safety Commission estimated that "93,880
saw-related injuries were treated in U.S. hospital emergency rooms". Of
these 52,000 (55%) involved stationary saws (table saw 38,000 (73%), miter
saw 7,640 (15%), band saw 4060 (8%), and radial arm saw 2,300 (4%). (Data
summarized from: Injuries Associated with Stationary Power Saws, May 2003,
Propit Adler, Directorate for Epidemiology, Division of Hazard Analysis,
U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission)
The average age of injured party was 51 years old. The average size of the
work piece was 2 ft long x 6 in wide by 1 inch depth. The vast majority of
accidents occur while ripping. There does not seem to be a correlation on
the type of blade being used at the time the accident occurred.
Oh, don't forget our friends, the lawyers
Every 9 minutes a person in the United States is injured using a table saw.
Ten people everyday suffer amputations. The impact of the injury begins
immediately and last forever.
Nice photos for the family album too
The article said:
"The average age of injured party was 51 years old."
Which appears to have made you assume:
"Given the average age, I'd say these were people with experience
I'd say that that is an assumption that cannot be made. Of course, it
also has to be based on your definition of "experience". If someone
uses a table saw *once*, do they have "experience"? Technically, by
definition, yes. However, in terms of this discussion, no.
I don't think that the average age can be that easily associated with
They give stats about age and they give stats about board size but
they don't give stats about professionals vs. experienced amateurs vs.
I'm above the given average age and I use a table saw for DIY
projects. I'd put myself somewhere between "experienced amateur" and
If I was the next one to get hurt I would raise the average age
slightly. However, as far as experience, I'm sure that I have less
hours on the TS than many 20-something contractors do - those that rip
hundreds of board-feet a week.
My only point is that I don't think you can conclude that the average
age of 51 means that those with experience are the ones being injured.
It *may* actually be true, but I don't think that the limited
information given justifies that conclusion..
Re read what I said. "I'd say" is an opinion. My opinion is based on the
people that I know that use table saws both a professional and as hobby
woodworkers and builders. All the older people that I know happen to have
many more years of exposure and use of most power tools than those younger.
I don't keep records though.
Fine, that is your opinion.
OK, you expressed your opinion, I've expressed mine. Unless someone comes
up with actual statistics, that is all either of them is. But do take a
look at the guys in most skilled manufacturing jobs today and see if you
might change your opinion. Stop by a Woodcraft or Rockler store and look at
the customers. Talk to the guys that post on rec.woodworking.
Remember, read first, then post.
"SawStop saws cut most wet wood without a problem. However, if the
wood is very green or wet (for example, wet enough to spray a mist
when cutting), or if the wood is both wet and pressure treated, then
the wood may be sufficiently conductive to trigger the brake.
Accordingly, the best practice is to dry wet or green wood before
cutting by standing it inside and apart from other wood for about one
day. You can also cut wet pressure treated wood and other conductive
material by placing the saw in bypass mode to deactivate the safety
Oh, please. Make up your mind. You complain about being spoon fed
safety, then when you find out that you're not being spoon fed you
complain about the spoon being missing.
"Sales propaganda"...you have learned well. If someone agrees with
your opinion, they're offering up hard facts, but when the opinion is
counter to your own it's sales propaganda. That seems totally fair
and unbiased to me.
You are right on one thing - yay! - Red's initial post didn't include
sales propaganda because he was just mentioning he saw the SawStop on
a TV show. Then you replied with "it's a worthless item" - which is
curious as that comment _is_ sales propaganda - negative propaganda
apparently to prevent people from buying a SawStop. Why would that
be? You've never touched one, right? You didn't even bother to find
out about how it works with green wood. Didn't even know the brake
could be deactivated. Then you chime in with some BS about down time,
lost labor, the expense of the cartridge and ruined blade, etc. You
know - blowing smoke.
You do realize that the alternative is someone losing a finger. I'd
appreciate your analysis of how much down time and lost labor there'd
be if someone loses a finger in the shop. Please also factor in what
a lost finger does to an employer's workmens comp premium, and what
effect it will have on the workshop's other employees' productivity.
If you can't be bothered to be unbiased and at least try to factor in
all of the variables, just call me some names and we'll call it a day.
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