What keeps the censer from getting dirty & not be able to read?From what I under stand it works on moisture,if its covered with a layer of dust how does it read. Learn your tools & use your head, but not for a stop block,
Some patents are rock solid. Bonney tools invented the flank drive box wrench and had a lock on it for the patent's entirety. The patent has since expired and now everybody and their dog makes some version of it. When the patent was valid, Bonney had such a lock on it, most ppl didn't even know flank drive existed.
nb
Fein Multi-Master.
It senses the capacitance of your finger, much like a cap-sense lamp.
As much I do know WHAT EVER MAY HAVE MAYBE DOING AS LONG YOU ARE STATING THAT YOUR PATENT IS UPGRADE OR MODIFICATION OF PARTICULAR ITEM YOU ARE FREE TO DO SO! no one can stop you or sue you.
"keith" wrote
Yes, do you read patents because you don't know how to design a better mousetrap? People say they will never put a man on the moon either, but my guess is, some day it will happen. Oh, wait . . . . .
What does the market for table saws have to do with you calling people names? Shows your thinking ability.
Remains to be seen. People thought Galileo was nuts too. And Copernicus. And many others. Careful in that boat, you don't want to fall off the edge of the earth.
Re read what I said. "I'd say" is an opinion. My opinion is based on the people that I know that use table saws both a professional and as hobby woodworkers and builders. All the older people that I know happen to have many more years of exposure and use of most power tools than those younger. I don't keep records though.
Fine, that is your opinion.
OK, you expressed your opinion, I've expressed mine. Unless someone comes up with actual statistics, that is all either of them is. But do take a look at the guys in most skilled manufacturing jobs today and see if you might change your opinion. Stop by a Woodcraft or Rockler store and look at the customers. Talk to the guys that post on rec.woodworking.
OK one out of how many? Sure some survive, as they should, but others often are out foxed at some point. Do you have statistics on how many are never challenged. I know a guy that have five rock solid patents too. He's never made a single item, neither has anyone else. But he has the patent.
Haven't a clue.
Nary a one, and couldn't care less.
I've seen those. Had an acquaintance who patented the dumbest travel grill ever conceived, a collapsable 5 sided "portable" grill made with
1/4" steel plate!! We tried to warn him off, to no avail. I think the patent cost him close to $5K and never a one was made. It was hilarious cuz the damn thing was too stupid for anyone to even use, let alone copy.nb
False choice. Hindsight isn't a logical argument.
Umm, SawStop doesn't have a radial arm saw. I haven't used my RAS in years and really bought a table saw because I don't like the RAS. It has done some things that weren't expected.
Why can't people understand cost-benefit trade-offs? Why does everything have to be an absolute? Why can't people just spend twice as much on everything because it's "safer"? Do you have a fire truck and ambulance standing by in your garage?
Yes, accidents happen. So what? Not everyone will do something that dumb.
Learning from the mistakes of others is. In fact, it is pretty much the supreme logical argument unless you're living in some ivory tower.
I'm not trying to convince you to do anything with your money. You earn it, you spend it. You are free to spend as much or as little on a tool as you see fit. I was merely addressing some inane remarks that the SawStop is worthless and bad technology. It's anything but.
You are now free to resume your normal programming.
R
Come to think on it, this gizmo wouldn't work on a meat saw, would it?
On the other hand, some good ideas DON'T get patented.
On the other hand, I once took a program I'd written to the VP of Development (a program for resolving miss-ties in gravity surveys). He said "This is too good to patent. We'll have to treat it as a trade secret."
No, because there is no guaranty that any individual will have an accident. The argument was worded as a decision made in hindsight. "If you knew you were going to die today, why don't you stay in bed.".
It's not worthless at all. It's *WAY* too expensive. If it was perhaps $500 instead of $2000, I would likely have come to a different decision. It was
*not* worth twice the money.This is normal, here.
$500...? For a table saw? Huh? For $500 you get a DeWalt job site saw. Hardly comparable to a cabinet saw. The SawStop is also more than just the brake. In all of the reviews they mention it's well thought out design and nice features. You are comparing two different animals, saying they're the same, and then basing your opinion solely on money. Where's the logic in that?
It's your opinion that is *WAY* too expensive. Opinions vary, and there's a niche for every tool. It's no skin off of your teeth, is it? So what's your beef? Do you get all bent out of shape because a Mercedes is twice the price of a Toyota? Fine, don't buy it. But to picket in front of the store, which is kind of what you seem to be doing here, seems odd.
True. :)
R
Yes, I *might* have gone $2000, instead of the $1600 I paid for the Unisaw, but there was no way I was going to shell out $3500 for the SawStop. A nice Grizzly cabinet saw was about $1300.
No, $500 for the SawStop *FEATURE* (it should be closer to $200). I might have gone for perhaps a 30% premium, but *not* twice. This isn't an academic exercise for me. I've been there.
Exactly! Do you propose that *everyone* drive a Mercedes because they may be safer than a Toyota? ...even though they cost twice as much? After all, you're far more likely to get killed driving than you are working on a table saw.
I don't think a Mercedes is twice as safe as a Toyota, but no, it's like I said, anyone is free to buy whatever they want. I was just addressing the SawStop disinformation.
BTW, I've recently started making the switch over to Festool stuff. Their smaller circular track saw lists for ~$500. Their jigsaw close to $400. The vacuum I got, with all of the accessories, lists for over $1600 before tax. There are no Festool discounts available anywhere. I picked up the tools at a garage sale, and on eBay and Craigslist. I paid roughly $900 for the three. Including the other Festool stuff I've picked up, I'm all in for about two grand, and I'm not done. I am now selling the tools I've replaced and expect to get at least six or eight hundred. I'm trading up.
Is the stuff worth it to me? Hell yeah. I wish I had gotten into it earlier. Life is too short to work with 'acceptable' tools that inconvenience me. All of their tools are part of a system, and you can use the tracks with their routers, jigsaws, and circular saws. The dust collection with their vacuum is almost perfect, and it's a variable speed _quiet_ vacuum. It makes the work much more enjoyable and I don't spend nearly as much time cleaning up. Time's money, whether you're getting paid for it or not, right?
I can't just look at a tool and say that just because it's X dollars more that it doesn't make sense. I have to factor in the other things, and those other things can easily tip the scales one way or the other. I don't have especially deep pockets, but I'll find a way to afford something if I think it warrants it. I've never used the SawStop, and I'm not trying to sell it to anyone, but if I were in the market for a table saw I'd certainly take a hike down to a dealer and put it through its paces before I shelled out any cash.
R
The "predatory lending" portion of your post could have been left out, since it wasn't really relevant to the discussion, but since you brought it up...
"Predatory lending" came about as a result of laws interfering with banks doing business. No one in their right mind lends money to someone who can't pay it back unless they are given sufficient reason to do so. Laws, and regulatory agencies who go after banks for discrepancies in loan approvals provided that reason. In order to stay in business making loans to people who *could* pay them back, lending institutions began making loans based upon social factors rather than business factors. To do otherwise would cost too much in the form of defense against litigation for "redlining". But when you are reactng to an artificial factor in the market, you lose the eficiency of the market. There came more dead weight than could be borne by the lending institutions, and here we are. Because of government interference and then bailouts in that instance. If businesses are allowed to do things like have limits on what can be collected by knuckleheads who harm themselves acting foolishly, insurance premiums would go down as well.
As for the Saw Stop device, I like the idea, and I am happy to see an innovation of its kind making money. I have a tremendous amount of respect for someone who takes the initiative and risk to invent and patent a device which many find useful. What I *don't* respect is (if true as presented earlier in this thread) someone attempting to make their invention a legal requirement. If that were to become the case, I would hope that the companies being held to this are able to bypass his patent with another device.
If enough people feel his saw is superior and worth the extra money, he will succeed. In fact, it appears that he is succeeding. It is unfortunate that it seems to have taken his failing at the "legal requirement" shortcut after he was unable to sell the technology to the companies in existence when he invented the device. But he now was forced to compete on the open market. He's doing well, and it shows what being forced to compete can accomplish.
I agree that the reaction to new safety devices of this sort are - well, reactionary. Some are certainly based upon the new and different, some are "tough guy" responses, some are people who don't like the idea of the added expense. I think a good many, though, are reacting to the feeling of being pushed into safety without their consent and the ability to weigh the pros and cons for themselves. They kind of steel their jaws to it because they would prefer to make determinations of the relative values of safety, convenience, cost, and a thousand other unseen factors that may play a role in their decision process.
My reaction to the Saw Stop device was "Wow, that's great. I'd like to have one." Then I saw the price, and thought "Perhaps an acceptable level of safety can be reached in some other, less costly way." Bear in mind that the acceptable level of safety for me in part is accomplished by relatively minimal use of the table saw, but if I were making my living as a carpenter, the cost-benefit analysis would change, and I might see the price as more reasonable in relation to my purposes. But that would be one of the thousands of unseen factors that I would be in the best position to determine for myself.
The important component to this would be that the cost of my decisions would be borne by me as well. While I have a vested interest in keeping all of my digits and avoiding the attendant pain of a traumatic amputation, when the scenario includes society (or an insurance collective) sharing the long-term cost of my mistakes, I am more likely to make those mistakes than if I have to bear the long- range consequences myself.
Therefore,I think it is in some sense the idea of rugged individualism which fuels reactionary responses to such safety devices. For my part, I think the Saw Stop is phenomenal. I wil let the richer among us vet the product at a higher cost, as they typically do, before I get one. I bear no ill will toward them, nor do I toward those who make safety devices of this sort. I will, in fact, join their ranks when I am able, either as a rich guy (not likely) or as a guy who waited for the price to come down. I do, however, confess to being one who reacts quite negatively to the concept of someone else determining that I must pay for safety in a manner decided by someone else, applying weight to factors perhaps quite differently than I might given my own personal circumstances.
In short, Bully for the Saw Stop guy, but not for an attempt to do an end around and essentially require that his product be bought.
Pick your poison then. You would have everyone spend twice as much?
I have a couple, likely won't buy any more, though. Too expensive and I'm happy with the other tools I have.
Have one (TS-55). I may pick up another (shorter) piece of track next week.
No use for it. Perhaps if I didn't already have a Bosch.
Didn't want yet another dust collector. I have enough of 'em. Their bags are ridiculous.
They (TS-55, TS-75, track, and dust collectors) were just on sale for 10% off. Not much, but it *was* a discount.
...and a OH1400 (router).
I can buy this stuff partially because I chose not to spend $3500 on a table saw. My Unisaw works just fine.
Yeah, I know all about FesteringTools. Your point?
Sure.
Your point? Why don't you have a SawStop. OMG! You're going to DIE!
Isn't that the concept behind Consumer Reports?
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