native to ohio and colorado , op hasnt said where he lives , but im guessing ohio ,pennsylvania .
willshak wrote:
"diesel"?h> ooGeisel is a brand name of furnace.18> What's the fuel source? Any more details other than that?o>6> arh-- 4aBillmIn Hamptonburgh, NY7To email, remove the double zeroes after @
there ya go again ,demonstrating what you dont know he said and meant Geisel ,
"Christ>Do you mean "diesel"?
Mine is 30 years old and still looks as good as new because I clean the insides and outsides regularly. Had the gas company check the heat exchanger tubes two years ago and they're OK.
I took out the attached humidifier years ago because of window condensation. It also had too much lime buildup on the water tray and sponge element. A replacement sponge is ridiculously expensive. Worse, the humidifier was fungal culture heaven. The sponge element and water tray always felt slimey. It would have received fungal spores, pollen and airborne particulates from the fresh air intake. There's food and warm water to promote fungal growth. Imagine the spores that get circulated. Respiratory distress. Or that regular winter flu season. I haven't had recurrent winter flu for some years now.
living in too dry a environment can lead to other health troubles. with 1% humidity common in a clod climate with heating it can make you vulnerable to bugs.
Also there are some super humidifiers available that eliminate the old water tray and sponge. Aprilaire being one. They use a solid media, more like a thick screen material that fresh water trickles over from top to bottom with air moving through it, and the small amount of remaining water exits and drains out. When it shuts off, the residual heat quickly dries off the remaining water.
I have a lot of house plants. If they thrive I thrive. I have a 30 year old philodendron that has four daughter potted plants. Among other plants my pride and joy is a a cedar plank wall full of climbing ivy that thrives on just watering. The last time I added fertilizer it burned - killed the plant. They need watering only twice a week. I feel comfortable indoors and outdoors and the ambient humidity in both atmospheres is very agreeable to me. Alberta air is quite dry, the body rarely gets sticky with sweat. The plants outside get enough moisture to stay green without watering. We had great summer where temperatures rarely went above the mid 20s celsius.
and the problem with your analysis is this: If your bill averages 100 dollars a month over an entire year and you put a new system in and your bill goes down to say 70 dollars a month that's 30 dollars a month that you were giving the utility comapny that you did not have to. Since the average life expectancy of a heating and air system is
15 t0 20 years you are saving between 5400.00 and 7200.00. Furthermore, if you took 5400.00 dollars and invested it in a 5 percent money market fund you actually realize 11,226.00 over the 15 year life of the system or 14,327.00 over 20 years due to the magic of compound interest. Further, lets say your money market fund gets taxed at 30 percent, you still come out ahead at 7859.00 at 15 years or 10,029 at 20 years. So, as I said, your are giving the utility company free money, period.
Excuse me? Problem with my analysis? I didn't attempt to make a complete analysis of the economics in the refrigerator, only point out the most obvious flaw in the website analysis that completely ingnored the initial outlay for the new refrigerator. You are correct that you can refine the analysis further, by including compound interest, which only makes it look worse.
However, now that you want to go deeper into analysis, there are some very big flaws in your analysis. You're saying you save $5400 in energy cost over 15 years. You then take that amount and say it turns into $11K if invested over 15 years. WRONG. Because the savings of $5400 isn't available on day 1. It only becomes available at the rate of $30 a month. At the end of the first year, there is only a little over $360 in your bank account. So, to follow your analysis, the correct comparison is to see how much you have at the end of 15 years if you put $30 a month away to earn interest. And at
5%, that is $8k. And then if you want to factor in taxes, you have to pay tax on it each year, not at the end of 15 years. That reduces the amount at 15 years to $7K. Oh, and then factor in the present value of money. Which is to say, your $7k savings at the end of 15 years needs to be discounted back to today to account for inflation. Because surely you don't think $7k in 2022 is going to be equivalent to $7K today. Assuming a modest rate of inflation of 3%, that $7K in 2022 is equivalent to a mere $4400 today. Now compare that to the cost of the new furnace. Hmmm, doesn't look quite as good anymore, does it?And then you completely ignore the other side of the balance sheet, assuming the guy has cash sitting around to pay for the new furnace or put in the bank. How about if he takes out a home equity loan at 8% to pay for it? Or some other financing at an even higher rate? I also see no reason to believe that a 25 year old gas furnace that is in good shape is going to result in 30% lower gas bills. Furnaces were generally 80% efficient in the 80s. You can get a 90 to 93% one now. That equates to a savings of about 14%, not 30%. Uh, oh, now run the above numbers and you're not ahead anymore, you're in the hole because your 15 year savings are now less than half of what they were at 30% or around $2K. Think you can get a 90+% system installed for $2K?
Oh, and we haven't even factored in the technology involved to get the
93% have we? What happens when one of the widgets that high efficiency furnace has fails, that the old one doesn;t have, so it can't fail? In other words, very likely higher maintenance costs.Bottom line, there is no one right or wrong answer. A hell of a lot depends on how much his heating system is used, depending on where he lives, how he finances it, etc.
However how does any of that equate to giving the utility company free money? You are buying gas or electric from the utility company. The utility company has to get this gas or electricity from somewhere and pay for it, don't they? So, how is it "free money" to the utility company? You can certainly say that you're paying more for energy than you would with a higher efficiency furnace, but how that translates into "free money", makes no sense.
Well lets assume that both of the analysis are wrong. You still are giving the utility company free money if you are using a 25 year old furnace. There is no way it is at 80 percent effeincy, no way.
My company guarntees that on a system that old your utility bills will decrease by 50 percent on the average over a year. If we tell you it will and it does'nt then we give you the system for free, period.
I've ran that offer for five years now and NEVER given away a system, NEVER. Without fail the bill decreases by at least 50 percent. Why? Because we give that offer on a 93 AFUE , 2 stage, variable speed furnace coupled with a 19 seer condenser and coil. Then we do a manual J load calculation to insure the system is sized correctly and we couple that with with a manual D duct calculation to insure the duct work is sized correctly. Next, because we are in Calfornia we do a title 24 duct test and insure that the duct work leaks less than 15 percent. Lastly you are required by us to have double pane windows and a minimum of R32 insulation.
If you want anything other than that, then the offer of a free system and a 50 percent savings on your utilities is off the table. Most people go with the free system offer. For what it's worth, here is what you get:
Trane XV90I Furnace, Trane XL19I condenser with ARI matching Evaporator coil, 10 year part and labor warranty, Load calculation, Duct Calculation, Title 24 compliance, all permits pulled, replace disconnect and breaker if required, replace condenser pad if required, replace lineset if required, replace flue and condensate if required, cart all the junk away and leave your property like we found it. You get all of this for 8,769.00. Roof top units are slightly more because of the requirment for a crane.
In addition, Trane often offers rebates as well as the local utility company. You can't beat the price unless you hire a one man band or a hack that will be gone in a year.
Bottom line, if you want to keep running that 25 year old system then by all means, don't let us stop you. Just know that you can do a hell of a lot better.
Put your numbers into a spreadsheet, fully accounting for the costs and benefits (including those identified by the other responding posters), and calculate your IRR.
I suspect there won't be one, because the replacement will lose money. But feel free to present a full analysis, with details (where the Devil resides, as usual).
BTW, even utility companies don't (generally) get free lunches.
No, only your analysis is wrong, as I demonstated to you. I made no complete analysis, until you came up with one that was obviously bogus. Take all the savings for the next 15 years that will only come in slowly, and assume you have them all day one, upfront, and put it in the bank. Total BS.
You still are
You need to get a better command of the English language. What exactly is your definition of "free money"? Is it free to the utility company? No, they provide gas for the money. Is it free to the payer? I don't think so, that person presumably worked for the money, so it's hardly free. But it is a nice marketing phrase, that you;ve obviously bought into.
50% savings? Sorry, but it's total BS. But at least now we know we're your coming from, which is to sell new systems.Not surprised, because usually the terms and conditons of such an offer are next to impossible to meet.
Without fail the bill decreases by at least 50 percent. Why?
Oh, I see now the fine print comes out. Were we talking about an AC system in this thread? Or just a furnace? And now we have to buy a
93% furnace AND a 19 SEER AC. Hmmm, how much exactly does said system cost? How about if I live in a moderate climate?Most
Bottom line, you have something to sell. The OP didn't have an AC. He has a 25 year old furnace. I'd like to see where someone automatically comes out ahead by switching from a 1980s vintage gas furnace that is working fine, to a new higher efficiency system, regardless of what climate the system is located in.
You didn't even bother to ask that, did you, before you went into sell mode with "free money"
What total BS,
My annual gas bill for heating is about $250. Take half that and tell me how much I can justify spending on a new furnace to replace my 25 year old one. Then tell me how I can get a furnace installed that cheap. Would you take the job?
You're either a troll or an idiot, I haven't quite figured it out yet. Either way, you're not the sharpest pencil in the box. To date I have sold over a thousand systems that I described. You can believe me or not, I really don't care. Now go f*ck yourself asshole.
snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote in news:1189312804.898023.53060 @g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com:
What approximate part of the country and what R-value insulation, what & how many windows? Lot's of stuff involved.
OLDHVACDUDE wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com:
Look at the payout numbers. By your logic a person should pay you to avoid paying the utility company. Not exactly the correct economic decision there now is it?
Well put!!!
9 avg size windows one large in lving room. Northern Ohio
Here's a mighty fine question for our guaranteed savings salesman. According to him, here's the deal:
"My company guarntees that on a system that old your utility bills will decrease by 50 percent on the average over a year. If we tell you it will and it does'nt then we give you the system for free, period. "
So, after getting a nice $8K system installed by his company, what might we expect a whole lot of customers to do? Hmmm, why wouldn't they turn the thermostat up to 76 in the winter, leave a couple windows open. Turn it down to 60 in summer, leave a couple windows open. In other words, just make sure that you're utiltiy bills for the next year don't go down by 50% for a year. Then they get their $8K back, right? This is such an obvious BS guarantee, which surely has some fine print that insures they never have to pay off. Otherwise, any damn fool knows they'd be out of business in no time.
Shortly after I moved into this house, I found there was a factory recall on my furnace, or more correctly the factory wanted to do a modification to prevent something bad from happening. I called the factory and asked them if they knew anything about the people who installed it, whose tag was on the furnace, and the factory spoke highly of the dealer. So I called the dealer and arranged a service call.
Now, the recall involved paying the dealer their usual service-call fee, PLUS an extra $25, PLUS giving them free parts. So I figured this was a fairly good deal for them. Apparently they didn't think so, because two months later I was calling them again to find out why I hadn't been called and scheduled for a visit. So they got off their lead asses and scheduled something for a few months down the road.
When they finally came, the guy disassembled a lot of stuff, said he replaced the parts, and broke a safety interlock microswitch. He wired across the switch and said he'd schedule a service call to replace it.
It's been four years now, and they haven't bothered. If you think I'm going to let them touch anything inside this house ever again, you're wrong.
So tell me again how I'm going to call a factory-recommended professional to come out, tell me my furnace is ten years old and needs to be replaced for five times his cost, and then tweak a few things for the worse when I tell him I want a second opinion.
My 30 year old house is fully paid up. I quit paying for house insurance 10 years ago. I live alone and my habits don't involve anything that will have an open flame or electrical overloads. Every appliance is well maintained by myself. If there is damage to the house, say weather induced damage, my calculation is that I can fix it myself or hire someone to do it. There won't be any hassle to get the insurance company to accept my claim. No waiting. No frustrations. If my whole house burns down there's nothing I can't afford to lose. Things that do matter are in my safe deposit box at the bank or in a single briefcase that i can grab on the way out the door. Given the insurance claim hassles homeowners have encountered after Katrina, after wildfires, other natural disasters and man made ones I think I have the better strategy for managing loss. At worst I can always walk away. I don't have any debts. Those Katrina victims who lost their house also lost their savings, their health and their mental wellbeing. They have their agonies prolonged for years with no end in sight because the insurance protection they think they had doesn't exist. It costs big bucks to sue the insurance company too.
At least I'm honest enough to ask, not cover my ignorance with babbling.
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