Of course I know that already. We have a lawyer on retainer, but I'm not sure how much of his time we have used already and how much we can take before there is an addtional charge. This management agent keeps referring one thing after another to him, and just last week her version of what the lawyer said differed from the what the president said the lawyer said. Even though the agent does it for a living, because of past things, I tend to think she was wrong and the president right, but I don't know details yet.
She's the third agent from this company, after 2 of them left for different reasons, and we had already decided to find a new management company, but our contract year doesn't end until Jan. or march, I forget which. The other problems, largely as I recall that it took her months to get simple things done, were minor, imo, compared to this one.
Maybe we don't pay as much as other clients and they give us their most dubious employee. I don't know what to do about that. It's very hard to raise the dues and in 38 years we've rarely been able to do it.
That's what I really dont' like about an HOA, that it has responsibilities and the rules for raising the dues are so difficult. But at age 36 when I moved here, I never would have foreseen that, and I wan't planning to stay long anyhow.
Hardly. We were all contactable, and we were, that is the president was, waiting for the agent to get back to us with at least one more bid.
This was back in the 90s, I was president of a condo association with
120 units. We had this one resident who was a bit of a gadfly, always coming to meetings and coming up with ideas of what we should do. So, I encouraged her to get on the board, she did. First thing she wanted to do was chuck all the existing contracts and start all over on everything. Which showed disrespect for the rest of the board, like we all had not done our best to make the best choices over the past few years. One of her biggest ideas to save money was to hire the wonderful management company that managed among other properties, the larger complex across the street. They were substantially lower than what we were paying, but the biggest part of that was that we had an on site manager provided by our company that was there two days a week. The management contract was up for renewal later that year, so I called the president of the other association and she gave me a great review of their management company, nothing but positives. The dingbat on the board quit after a month, but when the contract came up for renewal, we interviewed this other company and we hired them.
After about a year, in cold February, we had an emergency. A resident's gas line had failed. This is the run of about five to fifteen feet that goes from the meter to the unit. They were only 5 years old, if anyone told me that black iron pipe could fail that fast, I would never have believed it. But after further investigation, it was obvious what had been done. Upon excavation and examination, you could see it was black pipe that had the tar like compound on top of it with stones stuck to it, nothing underneath. They had just poured some of the required coating over the pipe, the bottom, where it failed, had no protection. It looked like swiss cheese. The only way the failure was found was that the pipe gets water in it and then the furnace quits.
So, I don't remember if the owner of the management company called me at that point or not. He might have. But he found his relative, the plumber and an excavating/paving contractor to do the repair. They did that one. Then within weeks we had a couple more, which they also did. They did that work in the freezing weather, at night, on an emergency basis. It involved uncovering the pipe, putting in new, then on half of them repairing paving across the width of the garage. We paid ~$2300 for each.
So now we obviously needed to replace the other 117, so we had this management company go get bids. They did that and came back with three bids for the plumbing and the excavating. The numbers were like $2200, 2300, 2400. See anything wrong there? If it costs $2300 to do three in an emergency, at night, freezing weather, think some of it was on a weekend, then why does it cost the same to do 117 in the spring, during normal conditions, no rush? There's no volume benefit, when the equipment is all there, you can pave
20 at a time, etc? So, immediately I smelled a rat, especially when his relative is the plumber.
By this time I was fed up with this management company for a lot of reasons and I didn't want to be the one pointing the finger alone, I wanted someone else to go check it out. So I asked the treasurer to look into the bids from the other two plumber bids and the two other paving bids. He called one plumber and the guy said, what? I didn't make any bid, IDK what you're talking about. This crook had totally fabricated that bid. We contacted a few plumbers and pavers and got the job done for ~$950 a unit. That would have been a $150K bonanza for his relative and the paver. And I talked to another contractor that had done work for us before and he told me that this management guy had tried to extort him for kickbacks to do work, so it's clear what was going on. I fired the management company. And then he refused to return our documents, corporate seal, etc. Imagine the balls on this crook. I should have gone to the prosecutor at that point. I think we eventually got it back after getting our lawyer after him.
But the story doesn't end there. Remember that with the first management company we had a manager on site two days a week. Well, when we didn't renew our contract with them they fired her, I guess they blamed her for the loss. Where did she turn up? She went to work for the new management company. IDK how long she worked there, but I guess it was long enough to learn a few things. Then I think a couple years later, this management company closed and the owner left the state. I wonder why? So must be over ten years later, I'm reading the local newspaper and what do I see? A story about a property manager arrested for embezzling an associations funds where she worked, a substantial amount, like $50K. It was her.
And I bet there are plenty more like this around. A lot of these HOAs have people on the board with no experience dealing with contractors, no idea what anything should cost and easy to to scam. But this one really had balls to make up a totally fraudulent quote. His biggest mistake was making it so all the quotes were so close together and the same as the price for emergency work in the middle of the night. If he hadn't been so greedy and stupid, he could have brought in quotes like $1800 which would still be 2x and might have gotten away with it.
He sent his insurance information to the prez, yesterday I think.
Acc. to the managemant agent "The longer this waits, the more chance this tree will fall. This homeowner is threatening to call an attorney if the tree is not taken down this week." AFAIK, the owner is lucky we're paying for this at all, but I'm sure she sincerely believes it's our responsibility.
I'm confused. Was the tree on private or community property before it fell? It is apparently on the ground now. Is it now on homeowner's property or community property? When you say "she's never there when I go to look", I'm led to believe that it's on the homeowner's property. In Maryland, if it was not on the homeowner's property before it fell, and there's no evidence that the community was negligent in not recognizing and remediating a potential fall, the onus (and cost) of removal is on the homeowner who has now been gifted with uncut firewood. She needs to communicate with her homeowner's insurance company and the HOA has no role in this debacle at all. The only potential involvement of the HOA is if the tree was on community property before it fell and the homeowner or the homeowner's insurance company claims the HOA was negligent in not remediating a hazardous tree. No?
There are several parts to that, now that he's added that the tree was growing on someone else's property.
If the tree was growing on HOA property, is it or is it not the obligation of the HOA to remove a fallen tree? What has been done in the past?
If it's not the obligation of the HOA to remove a fallen tree growing on HOA property, then AFAIK, it's probably the obligation of the other property owner where the tree was growing to remove it when it's fallen on another property. Over the years I think I've seen conflicting info on this, they should have contacted their lawyer and if he agrees, notified the neighbor. Their insurance would likely have covered it. Worst case, they could have refused.
Not in my case, on 2 separate occurrences. When large branches from a neighbor's tree fell on my yard (twice) *my* homeowner's insurance covered the removal of the branches as well as the damage to my house.
The second time it happened my Ins Co sent a letter to the neighbor "recommending" that he have the tree cut down due to it's condition. The letter implied that my Ins Co will attempt to recover their costs from the owner's Ins Co if it happened again.
The neighbor was a bit confused since he didn't even own the house when it happened the first time. He asked me about it and I explained what had happened the previous time. Same tree, different branch.
I also checked with my Ins Co just to make sure that I understood the situation. They assured me that they would pay me for removal and repairs regardless of how many times it happened, with no impact on my rates. I wasn't doing anything to create the risk nor could I do anything to mitigate it. Cutting branches back to the lot line would not prevent the remainder of the limb from falling into my yard.
It may depend on where you are. Around here if a branch of a tree falls off, it is up to whoever the damage is done as it is an act of nature. However if you can prove that the tree is in bad shape and you have contacted the property owner it is in bad shape, then the owner of the tree often becomes liable for any damage that hapens.
Similar to the dumb animal rule. If a farmer's cows get out and you hit the cow you or your insurance pays for the damage to the car. If you can prove the cows have gotten out several times it may be the farmer's fault for not keeping his fences in good repair.
Happened recently to neighbor across the street that told his next door neighbor that one of his trees was in bad shape and if it fell it could damage his property. They did not do anything about it and a large branch fell off and damaged neighbor's fence. The offending neighbor paid for it.
It's only happened once in the past, afaik, and that was a tree that fell on my back yard. 30 or 40' long, I cut it up myself and threw the pieces in the stream bed. I didn't keep much of it for firewood because I had more than enough already. My busybody neighbor 2 doors down kept taunting me for not calling the HOA,
So what do you all think of Marlyn's claim that a precednent will be set if the HOA pays for this one, and then others will be able to extract payment from us.
Private. Maybe I should have brought this up earlier. I didnt' because at the start I cared about the acts of the property manager.
I haven't brought it up with the HOA board for reasons I'm not sure of. The president also has a leaning tree behind her house. I was about to bring the topic up when she said the tree was on our n'hood's land. I wanted to go check before I argued with her, and then I didn't check.
But the prez lives upstream 600 feet and around a 90 degree bend from the current problem tree, and I'm really not sure who the neighbor is for the current tree. If I ever knew how to look this up, I've forgotten. I know I could go to the county offices and they would tell me, but I hadn't done that.
Homeowner's and the bottom 20 feet of it still on the neighbors.
Right.
The only thing the community could have done is notify the landowner, and none of us ever go back there or know anything about this houses's back yard. The only person in the community who might have known to do that is the person (a woman?) who lives in that house. Or her next door neighbors but there's not much chance of a neighbor getting involved that much.
I think so.
Now I"m wondering why the property manager didn't think of any of this. She came and took pictures. Although I don't know if she went back to where she could see the base of the tree, she knows there is no common property back there. Another reason to change management companies.
There is an access easement that runs behind all the houses, so the cable guy can get back there, people can take their lawn mower from the back to the front, move in big pieces of furniture like my grand piano, or afaik walk around just to have a look.
And I think some people think the easement is common property and not still owned by individual homeowners. They don't know what the word easement means. But the agent should know better and anyhow the easement is only 6 feet wide. The tree was growing 20 feet beyond that.
It's a little awkward. I probably made more money and have more money and know more about this legal stuff (though it doesn't seem so in this threade) than 99% of the neighbors and I've already gotten criticism one time from one person for insisting on some semi-legal point, and so I don't say too much. And this time it was already decided that the HOA would pay and I didn't even think about whose responsibility it was, or that her home insurance would pay for it. (Is there a deductable? I've never had a claim. )
Well of course that potential exists, depends on if others find out about it. If I found out, I would expect to be afforded the same services, wouldn't you? The bigger issue is why the board doesn't know if it's responsible or not and doesn't have a policy.
There is a corner house in a development about a block from the house of one of my friends. I pass it when I go to visit. Nice house, $800K range, Volvo SUV in the driveway. They have about 15 totally dead tall trees, all in one stand, close together. They are higher than the house, nearest ones are maybe 12 ft from the house. The ones farthest away are about 12 feet from the edge of the sidewalk and then there is the street. Their nice pool fence runs by another side, 5 ft from the trees. Probably 40 ft of pool fence is within range.
How such a cluster came to be, IDK, very unusual. :Like they all were killed by a disease, but I don't see that happening anywhere else. Or deliberately? IDK, but they have been dead a long time, many of them are just tall trunks with obvious decay, the branches gone, rot holes visible, etc. At the base they are in the two foot diameter range. Recent wind storm sent a mass of more dead branches, some 5" in diameter to the ground. Surprisingly nothing has destroyed the pool fence yet. But this is a classic accident waiting to happen. Either taking out the fence, damaging the house or worst case, falling onto the street and killing someone in passing car. If I lived in the neighborhood there I would call the town. It seems virtually impossible the way the lots are laid out that this belongs to anyone other than the owner's of that home.
I did some googling and looks like you're right. Unless you know a tree on your property is dead, dying, a danger, etc, looks like the neighbor has to deal with the removal of whatever winds up on their side. Makes me feel better. During Hurricane Sandy here a tree in the back of my property fell, with just about ten feet or so of the top crossing the line into the neighbor's back yard. I was in no rush to do anything, because it was in a wooded part of my property and all the tree guys were busy and charging top dollar. A couple months later, the neighbor had the small part on their side removed, to the property line. It's some doc that must specialize in diseases of the rich, 6000 sq ft house, so I guess he could afford it.
I suppose it depends on the state law but most states say something to the effect that these things need to be done equitably. When you start making exceptions you can create law suits the HOA is likely to lose. If they have a decent management company with a licensed "CAM"they will enforce the rules to the letter. A self managed HOA may not operate that way but they do it at their own peril.
Probably not. At least when I write questions, very often I forget to include the question mark, so I wouldn't be surprised if I didn't see yours. Seriously.
I think the answer is no, but I've started trying to find the opinion of someone who knows more than I do.
BTW, we were all passing out the newsletter this morning and we looked at the tree, and I talked to our prez, and it reminded me why I didn't raise whether we're responsible or not. When this topic (not this tree) was brought up in a meeting a year or two ago, she brought it up and had said it was our land, and I was going to look into that before I argued with her.
But I'd forgotten this part (and so had she) and this morning I suggested we weren't responsible, and she said she'd called the county (a year or two ago) and they sent someone out who said it was our land. The prez is not stupid, and she's going by what he said. I asked which department and she smiled and said the tree department.
I'm not convinced she was given accurate information, and yesterday, Friday, I had already called some county office and asked: If the land has no building, no address, and nothing but woods, how do I find out who owns it? [This time I remembered the question mark!]
And he said, "It's not easy". I kid you not (as Jack Paar would put it.)
He said, "Here is the web site I use" and it's one I'd used before, but if he uses it, I went more slowly through every option. I found I could get a list of every property on a given street (although in this case, there are two streets in the county with the same name, and another one that ends in Rd. rather than Ave., and they're all mixed together, but the page works quickly so I can just go through all the properties on all 3 streets**. There are about 40 entries.) For these 3 streets, and unlike the one below, none of the properties are listed with house numbers, even though I'm sure most of them have them! But when I click on a property, it brings up the record for that property and there is a clickable entry called "Map". That's great, except none that I tried would fully load. It loaded the frame around the map, but not the map. I'm hoping it works better the next time I try.
If worst comes to worst, I'll go to the county offices, but that's interesting too. I used to go to the county clerk's office and get the records for my house and the original development, and they let anyone go through the files and they'd photocopy for $1 a page.
When I went a few years later, iirc I think there was some intermediate stage where a visitor gave them the pages he wanted, they got them and copied them.
At that time, or maybe it was the next time a few years after that, they just had you use their computer terminal.
And that time, or maybe even a few years later, I realized there was no point in going there. I could stay home and do everything online. they had scanned all the property documents (and printably the civil and criminal court documents too). It was all online, which meant, among other things, no one could, accidentally or on purpose, steal them or write on them. I don't know how common that was, but I'll bet it happened.
But I'll still go to the office and if I'm there in person, someone will be willing to convince me they know what they're doing.
(One time I had to go to another office to find out what flood level my house is in.)
**But this is the street that some adjacent woods face on, but not the section of woods in question. That doesn't face on a street, it's just in the back yards of houses on another small street, and every entry for that street had a street number and matched a house on google maps.
The guy on the phone agreed that there are streams and wooded land in the county that are not public property. I was so excited and happy to have a house on a stream, especially in my price range, and I still like it a lot, but there are a lot of hills and streams and woods here.
OTOH, when I lived in Indianapolis and Chicago, it was pretty much flat, and when I lived in Brooklyn***, the streams all had had culverts put in them, then they were buried and the land was a lot flatter than it started out. This is the first place I've been with so many streams.
***Plus I lived atop Clinton Hill, and you won't find many streams at the tops of hills, and I lived on the 5th floor, which has even fewer streams.
I understand Maryland may still be living in the 19th century but our property appraiser web site has aerial maps with the property lines laid out and when you click on a parcel it tells you everything you want to know about it, including owner, owner's address, appraisals, building details, permits, tax bills and links to the court clerk web site with deeds, liens and mortgage information. You can link that back to previous deeds all the way back to where we stole it from the Indians. You can do a complete title search on a parcel in minutes and get the same result a title company charges you $150 for. No trip downtown, paper cuts or dust mask involved.
leepa.org
... but this is backward ass Florida. I am not sure how Maryland does it.
I think you should call the town anyhow. Apparently no one else will. They'll figure out who owns it.
I used to visit a particular friend once in a while, and the way this nearby suburb was built, a piece at a time, what had been a local street with only traffic from people who lived on the street, got connected at the far to another street, and I would go that way when leaving her house. And some guy had his car parked where parked cars go, but it had a medium? dark green cover, and in the dark I could not see it. If there were street lights, it didn't help.
In the daylight it wasn't a risk, but it seemed to get dark every night. The street was just wide enough to park a car on either side and oncoming cars not to hit each other in between. but if one pulled over another foot to better avoid an oncoming car, bang!
So I stopped and I walked up his driveway and found him and told him he should put reflectors on the car cover. Is that so hard to do? Or he was going to kill someone. I tried to be low-key, better than just now, to not raise his hackels**, and he didn't get angry but he showed no interest. Not cheap houses on this street, and I expect anyone with enough savvy to make some money ought to understand his responsibility not to hurt others. And his vulnerabiltiy to getting sued, which seems to work better than the first one. I think I went by there again one or two more times a month or two or three later and nothing had changed. This was before the internet, fwiw.
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