That label "15-ampere" is there for a purpose. Surely you're not advocating ignoring it ... are you? (Ref: NEC Article 240.5(b)(1))
Also look at NEC Article 240.5 (B) (2) regarding ampacity of fixture wire.
Your ignorance is showing. Either get with the NEC program ...or get the hell out of it. You may be a source for fire/shock hazards that exist today!.
A 15-ampere circuit breaker provides more protection than a 20-ampere circuit breaker, and is a standard ampere rating for circuit breakers (REF: NEC Article
240.6 (A).
Either provide backup for your argument ... or get the hell out of the way.
I'm ignorant about a lot of things but I can learn. It's obvious to me that you may be suffering from H.I.S.I., Pronounced "hissy". It stands for Humor Irony Sarcasm Impairment. It afflicts most Progressive Liberal Leftist Commiecrat Freaks who don't have a clue when someone is pulling their leg. You probably missed the movie "Spaceballs", a Mel Brooks SciFi parody film. It's a shame you don't understand a catch phrase from pop culture. You poor thing. ^_^
What your failing to recognize is they are approving installations that do no protect "listed" equipment (tenant owned, property owned, etc.). What's the purpose of NEC if it isn't to protect the public? What's the purpose of the listing effort (Testing for Public Safety) if the application of listed equipment in facilities allegedly complying to NEC do not protect the public after all?
If you have an appreciation for "real" power, you could acknowledge I-squared x resistance .... that's what a power cord would see. Protected by a 20-ampere circuit breaker could allow for up to 78% more exposure to power than what the power cord is rated for if it has a NEMA 5-15 plug and/or cord set. A 20-ampere circuit breaker does not limit the exposure of the 15-ampere rated device to
15-amperes! A 15-ampere circuit breaker does.
You can overload an extension cord utilizing a NEMA 5-15 plug if protected by a circuit breaker rated at 20-amperes. However, you cannot overload such extension cord if protected by a 15-ampere circuit breaker. Acknowledge?
I find it amazing this concept is so difficult to understand by the masses. I encourage you to contact any listing agency regarding my claims. I cannot imagine how anyone can misinterpret NEC in such a way that justifies listed devices not being protected. The words are quite clear in NEC Articles 100,
200, 300, and 400. I've responded to many post on this forum ... and have yet to be presented an argument that justifies not protecting Listed equipment. In fact, one response stated "All bets are off" once the installation has been approved by the regulatory agency ... and "We can't control what the user will interface with the receptacles" ... which is just not true if NEC is followed as written (REF: Article 110.3(A)(8) which states: "Other factors that contribute to the practical safeguarding of persons using or likely to come in contact with the equipment". The key words are "contribute", "practical", "safeguarding" .... ACKNOWLEDGED? It just isn't happening if 20-ampere circuit breakers used in branch circuits are interfaced with "Listed equipment" rated for use from branch circuit rated at not more than 15-amperes.
I've said enough in the forum to realize the concepts in the NEC are way above your head, and you just don't have what it takes to understand how it's suppose to work. Your logic is extensively flawed, and you've not presented anything resembling a logical argument except for what's referred to as "Appeal to Authority". If you are an authority, then present a logical argument.
You can easily overload a listed 10 amp extension cord with a NEMA
5-15 plug even on a 15 amp breaker - You seem to be a very strong advocate for "nanny state" interference at all levels of life - the government has to protect everybody because they are too stupid to protect themselves. It's bad enough that way in Canada already. You can't legislate intelligence, and you can't outlaw stupid. And getting the government involved in "protecting the people" against everything just guarantees that "stupid" wins.
Are you a lawyer, or do you just play one on TV?????
What 15 ampere label? I just looked at a cordless phone base station, a hair dryer, a Breville electric kettle, and a Brother multi-function copier/printer. All say UL listed, 120 V, 60 Hz and the amps/watts, the printer being 9.6A. No where does it say that it can't be plugged into an outlet that is on a 20 amp circuit. So, what label exactly are you referring to? If this is such a danger, then is should be easy to find a user manual for any of this common appliances that says not to plug it into a circuit that is greater than 15 amps. I've yet to see one.
Surely you're not
What "it" is that? There is nothing on my appliances labels or instructions that I'm ignoring. It shows they are UL listed,
120V 50/60 hz, 5 amps, 600 watts, that's all.
You must be a troll. Do you not realize that 20 amp circuits with
15 amp outlets are permitted in the NEC and that they are being installed by licensed electricians in millions of houses? And passed by the electrical inspectors?
And you have yet to explain the alleged fire/shock hazard that this presents compared to a simple floor lamp that uses an 18 gauge cord on a 15 amp circuit.
Nonsense. There are standard ratings for circuit breakers of
100 amp too, so what? You really are confused.
I just did. I'm waiting for you to show us an appliance manual for any commonly used household appliances that say that it can only be used on a 15 amp circuit. I've read many of them over decades and I don't ever recall seeing any such thing. Cite please.
It's quite obvious that the NEC doesn't agree with your fire and shock hazard argument. If this were a real problem of any significance, then the NEC would simply not allow 15 amp receptacles on a 20 amp circuit. Everyone knows that 95% of people are going to plug any appliance with a matching plug into a 15 amp receptacle. Very few are going to go find the panel and figure out whether it has a 15 or 20 amp breaker. And they wouldn't look because not one appliance manual I've ever bought has said that it had to be used only on a
15 amp circuit. So, why wouldn't the average person just plug it in? And the NEC, UL, electrical inspectors all know this is going on in hundreds of millions of homes. Obviously they don't agree that it's a code violation, illegal, dangerous or why wouldn't they do something about it?
So, if this were indeed a real problem, the NEC would simply ban putting 15 amp receptacles on a 20 amp circuit. The fact that they allow it, the fact that electrical inspectors pass these installs every day, says you'be full of baloney.
Why don't you show us some appliance manuals that say the appliance can only be used on a circuit with a 15 amp rating? Or some fire, shocks attributed specifically to this. With millions of appliances and millions of 15 amp outlets on 20 amp circuits that should be easy to do......
Here's an 18 gauge extension cord. It's rated at 10 amps. You could overload that on a 15 amp circuit.
formatting link
Here's another one sold at HD, rated at 13 amps. You could overload that on a 15 amp circuit.
formatting link
Acknowledge?
Yes, after all you only have EE's and electricians telling your you're wrong. We haven't heard from gfre who is/was an electrical inspector, but I bet he won't agree with you.
And again, if this is indeed a serious safety issue, why the hell does the NEC allow putting 15 amp receptacles on 20 amp circuits at all? Everyone knows that people plug all kinds of things into them and almost no one is going to go look at the breaker. Not that they would even know to look, because I'm still waiting for some appliance manuals that say that the appliance may only be plugged into and used on a 15 amp circuit.
not wanting to blunder into your p**sing match but I have had stupid customers plug 15 amp machines into 18 gauge extension cords, most notably one stapled to a carpeted wall. they used a 3 prong to 2 prong adapter too so theunit wasnt grounded.
so people can and do overload circuits.
really each and every appliance should be over current protected to whatever its normal current is...
Years ago, I got a call from a woman whose window AC wasn't running. Her son the handyman for apart- ment complex had used a grey cheater, and then a lamp cord extension to the power socket on the far wall.
Write a code change proposal. I am confident you will receive the appropriate consideration.
Petition UL to change its standards. I am confident you will receive the appropriate consideration.
A 15A circuit breaker does not protect #16 or #18 wires. Include in your petition to UL and the NEC prohibiting anything smaller than #14 wire. My desk lamp deserves a #14 cord.
And include in your code change proposal correction for the blatant over-sizing of protection for fixture wires in 240.5-B-2.
Also include in your code change proposal correction for the blatant over-sizing of circuit breakers for motors, and even worse, welders. And I don't even want to think about what they do with fire pumps - it could cause a fire.
Everyone understands your argument.
As I have explained several times, including quoted above, 110.3 (inspection) is not used for "listed" equipment. The AHJ does not second guess the listing standard. The AHJ determines the device is used according to the manufacturers instructions and conditions of listing.
I am a licensed master electrician. I have explained how the NEC and UL work.
You missed the point. Even if the label say 0.1 amperes, it's appropriate to apply the device to a branch circuit of not more than 15-amperes, the smallest standard size breaker ... which provides the maximum protection..
Goggle McMaster Carr, Three conductor indoor/outdoor extension cords. Nearly all are rated at a maximum of 10 to 15 amperes at 125 VAC. A 20-ampere circuit breaker will not protect such devices. A 15-ampere circuit breaker will.
Just because this is the way it's been done in millions of houses doesn't make it right. In fact, it supports my argument (Get it Right).
This is called an "Appeal to Authority" argument (Goggle it!).
No, I'm not a lawyer. However, I am a Licensed Professional Engineer. I've engineered "Listed" equipment, and designed branch circuit protection for DOD facilities. I'm not aware of any fires/shock hazards attributed to my works over the past 45-years.. However, I've determined the cause of fires of several facilities .... all due to improper branch circuit protection, and yet the "As-Built" drawing, reviewed and certified by the local regulatory agency as complying with NEC, didn't comply!
If there we're accountability for improper branch circuit protection, and the resulting fires and shock hazards, this problem would be cleaned up. The forum has really exposed the ignorance and arrogance of the user's of NEC ... and at all levels.
I'm prepared to support my argument in court, as I've done in the past! Would you?
They would both be protected with a 15-ampere circuit breaker. The listing you quote is the steady state current ratings of the device. There is a reserve ... and at that reserve current (15-amperes), the reliability of the conductors deteriorates ... but not to the point it would ignite cheesecloth (Ref: U.L. Standards for listed extension cords and power cords".
You acknowledge a 15-ampere circuit breaker provides more protection than a
20-ampere circuit breaker?
The GFRE with the City of New Orleans certainly does't agree with me ... and after I proved him wrong. What an arrogant SOB ... and he lacking BACKBONE!
U.L. isn't the problem. They are doing it right! The problem is interpretation of NEC. You can't protect a listed device that utilizes a NEMA 5-15 power cord set from a 20 ampere circuit breaker. Goggle McMaster Carr, extension cords. None are rated at more than 15-amperes @ 125 VAC. See the problem?
We had a bit of disagreement here when I stated that I installed breakers sized to protect the wiring not necessarily the equipment. The argument was that according to the NEC, you can use #12 to an AC unit and a 30 amp breaker. In my experience I've seen burnt connections and melted insulation when the wiring is installed in that way. I've measured actual LRA on an AC unit when it was 102°F outdoors and the current far exceeded what was on the nameplate. ^_^
HomeOwnersHub website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here.
All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.