mind. You cannot have a tank that has water coming in the bottom and out the top be a "pressure tank" - it is impossible.
to enter the tank.
s WRONG. Repeat after me "Harry was Wrong" Got it?
idea of having 50 gallon storage when the power goes out and the regular t ank empties?
ough that BOTH tanks will drain. You won't wind up with 50 gal water left after the storage tank empties. That was my understanding of what he was a fter to begin with. I was probably wrong about that also.
them in series, i.e., one with water in the bottom and out the top.
ter like you had added a second pressure tank.'
the first tank empties.
en at top and bottom connected to the house supply.
ugh the storage at every cycle but does not empty when the power goes out. Even then I think there would be a problem getting air into the storage ta nk to allow it to drain.
it will definitely drain
ries to drain.
p, water can't come out? You've never heard gurgle, gurgle?
but I have my doubts.
with water flowing through it? You can't have both.
I proposed. Still don't believe me? Go take a look at your water heater ta nk and tell us how that works.
Only one "fussing" that if you put it at the end of the run (after the take
-off to the house), you will wind up with a tank of stale, stagnant water.
at the bottom through a dip tube like the hotwater tank does.
Fill with inlet at bottom? Of course it would. It would also drain out alo ng with the pressure tank.
I don't see the advantage to shutting off the second pressurized tank and waiting until the first is empty. Leaving it on, you'd still draw water from both tanks, get the same amount of water, the pressure would just go down slower.
With no valve cutting it off from the system, as described above, it would not be stagnant, the water would constantly enter and leave it as the pressure in the system goes up and down. The pressure in both will go from pump cut-in pressure to cut-off pressure. That means water has to go in and out.
None required.
That's certainly the easiest solution for some extra water.
Not if it's a pressure tank. You dragged pressure tanks into the discussion of the solution that I proposed, though one is not required. But since you're talking about it, I would think you'd realize that a pressure type tank, ie one with air in it, can be anywhere on the system and the water level in it will rise and fall in sync with the water level in the original pressure tank. That's one of the advantages of a pressure type tank, you would not have stagnant water. The other is that it provides pressure, so that he'd have more water under pressure, ie it would flow normally through faucets, etc longer. The disadvantage is that for a tank size of X, a pressure tank probably holds about 1/2X that as water, the rest is air.
How does water magically "drain out" in a water system? And you continue to refuse to address the excellent learning examples I gave you:
How does a water heater stay full of water when the power goes out and the cold water is used up?
Imagine you have a cold water pipe that's 1" for 5 ft after the pressure tank in a typical system. Now make that pipe 4". What happens? Make it 8". Make it 30". Now you essentially have the tank I proposed. Anything draining out? Any stagnant water? Is it a "pressure tank"? Good grief.
Of course, the camper and RV people have a lot of ways of supplying water. Perhaps you can get a fresh water tank designed for RV, with a 12 volt pump that feeds water into the house?
With both tanks open, you could still have the situation where both tanks are empty when the power goes out. In that case, you would be in the same situation as a single tank.
Without a way to isolate the two tanks, it would only increase the capacity when they are full. It wouldn't help the close to empty situation.
True if it is a pressure tank. You specified storage tank.
Okay, I'm back
Because it is either pressurized or something is open lower than the tank of course.
Answer:
It doesn't run out while the pressurized water is running because the outlet is closed (until a hot water faucet is opened.
It doesn't after the pressurized water is done because of the dip-tube plumbing. Water doesnt' run uphill unless it is being pushed by something.
If it is after the take-off to the house, it will drain when the pressure goes down. As long as there is pressure in the system it will contain dead water.
If it is anywhere in the system prior to house take-off it is just a regular part of a pressurized system.
Yes, I see your point. The tanks shouldn't be drawing down to totally empty, before the pump kicks on, but there probably isn't much water left when the pump kicks on. Whatever is left, with 2 tanks, you'd have 2x as much left, but I agree that isn't going to be much. You could also put less charge air in the second tank, in which case it would have more water at all times.
But, IDK why we're even talking about adding pressure tanks. They are inherently the wrong solution, because half or more of the tank volume is air, not water. If you just put a regular tank, ie no air, in series with the existing pressure tank, it would be full of water all the time. You could get the full tank of water out of it with a drain valve at the bottom. Or you could have a small tank of N2 and have pressurized water for the house.
You really are the village idiot. If you put a second regular tank in series with the existing pressure tank, you have an extra FULL TANK OF WATER when the power goes out. One more time, just like your water heater. Is that empty when the power goes out? If you add another 50 gal water heater, wouldn't you have 50 gals more water when the power went out? Same exact thing happens if he adds the extra tank, in series, as I outlined. I know, you admitted I was right. That you didn't understand what I meant. But here you are still spreading BS that makes no sense. If you add a 50 gallon tank, you have 50 gallons more water, just as if you had ten 5 gallon jugs sitting around.
Idiot, clearly in the paragraph above I'm talking about a *pressure tank*, which you dragged in here and want to add to the mix. See the last sentence where it says "pressure tank"? Good grief.
Once again, your writing is not clear. I assume that when you say "because it is either pressurized" you really mean "because it's pressurized and someone opens a faucet, etc. So, what you're describing is the normal usage of water out of the system. That wasn't the question. The question is why under normal operating conditions, if I've added a second tank (not a pressure tank, just a tank), in series with the first as I described, why would that tank not be full of water when the power goes out? Answer?
When the power goes out, nothing will change until someone draws water. The 50 gallon tank (not a pressure type tank with air that you keep harping about), plumbed in series with his existing pressure tank is still full of water. That's what I described in my first post and you still don't get it.
Same thing happens with the second storage tank in series with the first. It doesn't run out of water either. Whatever water is left in the pressure tank when the power goes out, will flow through the second added tank and out any faucet you open. When the pressure drops to close to zero, the flow will stop. The extra tank, just like thw WH, will still be full of water. Got it now?
Same thing happens with the second storage tank. The dip tube is irrelevant. How is the water from that 50 gal extra tank going to flow to the kitchen/bath faucets? It can't one the pressure is gone from the existing pressure tank. It remains full. The water will flow out if you open a drain valve and let it flow into a bucket for use.
How the hell is it going to drain? The only possible way is by gravity and in every house I've lived in the pressure tank, pump, whatever was lower than the faucets, toilets, etc. Is it possible to have that, sure. Is it typical, what you seem in almost all cases? No. Good grief.
You still need to get the water out of the well. The only way to have a sizeable reserve of fresh water when the power goes out is to have a reservoir in series with the pump that is ALWAYS full, and continuously exchanged. A gravity storage tank fits the bill It needs to have an (filtered) atmospheric vent and a float/fill valve and feed your system by gravity, or an automatic vent that lets air in to drain it and lets air out to fill it, but does not let water out or contamination in. - and feeds your system either under pressure or by gravity when the power is on, and by gravity when it is off. I know several farms that used either a windmill or a hydraulic ram to pump well water or spring water into a "water tower" on the farm which provided gravity feed water to both the house and barns. They had freezing problems in the winter if the water was not kept running contiunously - and the ram pump in particular sometimes froze in the "spring-house". In realcold spells sometimes it was necessary to keep a lantern burning in the springhouse to prevent freezing and splitting the pump (the farm where my mother grew up- no hydro up untill the mid/late sixties)
Perhaps if you would concentrate one what is being posted instead of insults you might get the point.
Your lash up will work IF HYOU PLUMB YOUR PRECIOUS STORAGE TANK WITH WATER COMING IN THROUGH A DIP TUBE.
Why would one plumbed the normal way empty? Because as the pressure drops in the pressure tank (regular one), the weight of water in the storage one will force water out of it.
There is a problem with that last paragraph but I'll leave you to find it.
Agree with that part, which is what I suggested in post #1.
In lieu of the above scheme, he could just use a simple storage tank in series at or below ground level together with a pump, like one of those suggested in the RV water supply idea. Boats also use similar. The boat ones are 12V pumps, intended to run off battery. Have one of those pumpts plumbed in, together with an inline tank, and you're good to go.
IF YOU could concentrate on the posts, I wouldn't be using the insults. But when I post a new paragraph specifically about "prssure tanks" and then you come back with "that only works if it's a pressure tank, not if it's a storage tank", what do you expect? And then you claim I switched to pressure tanks, which is either incorrect or an outright lie. I only addressed pressure tanks because YOU brought it up. And you started it with accusing Stormin and me of not understanding hydraulics. So, sorry, but I can only stand so much.
BS. It will work exactly as I described. One more time, you put a simple storage tank inline, after his existing pressure tank. You plumb it so water goes in the bottom, out the top. It will fill entirely with water. That water will still be there when the power goes off, it does not magically disappear. No dip tube is required.
Again, you refuse to address the instructables I have given you. Let's say he has a 6 ft section of 1" pipe right after the pressure tank. Under normal opertaion, it's full of water now. Replace it with a 2" diameter section. Is it still full? Replace it with a 30" diameter, is it still full? Now stand it on end, so water comes in the botton, goes out the top. Is it still full? Does water somehow now magically disappear? There is your tank full of water. I detailed that out 3 times now, yet you still refuse to address it, answer those questions that show how it works.
Force water out of what exactly and to where? The standing column of water in the additional tank exerts the same PSI at the bottom of the tank as the standing column of water in his existing piping that supplies the house. Let's say he has a 1" feed from the pump and pressure tank on the floor going up from the floor, upstairs to feed the house. When the power goes out, he opens a cold faucet in a sink and lets it run until no more water comes out. At that point, whatever pressure is at the bottom of the pressure tank is due to the standing column of water. It depends only on it's height, not it's volume. Whatever pressure is there, is due to the total height, all the way to the second floor, wherever the heighest water point is in the system. Put a tank inline with that, let the power go out. Measure the pressure at the bottom of the pressure tank and it will be exactly the same. It's the max height of the water, not the volume.
And you said Stormin and I don't understand hydraulics? Good grief.
Yes, and will drain with the regular tank. Fill through a dip tube from the tope and it will not drain. That is the point you keep overlooking over how many posts now?
After I pointed out the problem with stagnant water and tanks not draining then you shifted to that version - solved the stagnant water part but still didn't solve the 'drain at same time' problem.
I already addressed it several times but you were so busy with insults you didn't think about it.
You then went on for post after post inserting special asir valves, tanks of compressed air with special valves, etc. IOW you do see the 'draining" and "stagnant water" problems.
0ut of your "storage" tank of and into the pipe draining the regular tank of course. Remember you are now talking about one in series but filling/emptying through the bottom.
Exactly. Which is why it is emptying at the same rate the regular one does.
Correct but don't forget your pressure tank, storage tank and all piping is interconnected. One rule of hydraulics is that in all closed systems, the pressure is equal everywhere (measured at the same height of course as in your example).
The Storage tank (again one that has empty/fill at bottom) will not drain out 'at the same rate' or even as far, it will only drain until the vacuum formed in the top of the tank equals the atmospheric pressure. Back to stagnant water again.
Storage tank 'in series' with fill bottom/exit top is interconnected and will drain at same rate.
Now go back to 'fill through dip tube' you now have your storage tank in series, water being exchanged and it WILL NOT DRAIN until you want it to, i.e., you have the system you were after.
You have been fiddling with your first version since the start trying to solve the problems I brought up but didn't spot the error I was making (shown above) about the tank draining.
"Ill install air valve, tank of compressed air, change to fill at bottom and exit at top, etc" Then brought up the hot water tank and keep somehow overlooking, ignoring or failing to understand why that would make the whole thing work simply.
Good grief. I haven't overlooked it. You just don't understand basic physics. I explained exactly what happens when you add a storage tank as I described. One more time. You add a regular tank, after the pressure tank. It's plumbed so the water enters from the bottom, feeds to the house from the top. Under nornal operation it's always full of water. Water constantly flows through it just as if it were a pipe.
When the power goes out, at first, nothing happens. Then as you use water, it functions exactly as before, with water flowing from the pressure tank, through the storage tank, until the pressure is so low, close to zero, so that the water no longer can flow. At that point there is still a small amount of water left in the original pressure tank, just like before, and THE STORAGE TANK IS STILL FULL.
If you disagree, instead of just saying it ain't so, why can't you tell us where the missing water goes? I have a 30 gal pressure tank. I want extra water storage, so I add an 80 gal tank as I described. The system is in normal operation, the 80 gallon tank is full, the pressure tank is cycling normally. When the power goes out, the pressure tank has 15 gallons in it. So, now we have 80 gallons in the storage tank, 15 in the pressure tank. Where oh where does the 80 gallons magically disappear to?
Now you're lying. Here, from my first post in the thread, *before* you even made a post:
"Or add that second tank in series, so that it's always full of water, no air. If power goes out, you'd only have pressurized water for about as long as you do now. But you could still draw X gallons, X being the size of the additional tank into buckets. I guess you could also plumb in a tank of compressed air that you could activate, that would then provide pressure, so that you could use the full 80 or whatever gallons. "
So, I never said to use a pressure tank. And if you have a clue about pressure tanks, you'd know that it can't be a pressure tank from the above, because I said "it's always full of water". A pressure tank, at least a functioning one, is never full of water, it always has some air in it. And while I thought that the intent being that it should always be full of water, everyone would understand that you of course plumb it with the water coming in the bottom, exiting the top. Not hard to grasp.
And once again, you refuse to address the examples I'm giving that show you're wrong. You didn't address the clear example where I morphed an existing system with a 1" diameter pipe into a tank that's 30" in diameter. The pipe is full. The tank is full. You're wrong and that's why you won't even address it.
Liar. Everyone can see that you haven't addressed the example where I morphed a 1" vertical supply pipe, step by step, into a tank. Pipe stays full. Tank stays full.
You're such a liar. I just re-posted for you my very first post on the subject. It described the inline system, with no possibility of stagnation, including the possibility of adding an air tank. BTW, Claire suggested exactly the same inline tank too.
How the hell does water flow back the other way? Water under normal operation flows from the pump to the pressure tank, throught the inline tank full of water, and out a faucet in the kitchen. It's just like it flows through a
1" vertical supply line, with no storage tank. When power goes out, the pump no longer supplies water. At that point, if you open a faucet, water continues to flow from the pressure tank, through the full storage tank of water, out the faucet. Eventually, the pressure drops close to zero and the flow stops. At that point the pressure tank is mostly empty, the storage tank is full. How in the hell would the flow suddenly reverse? And where would say 80 gallons of water from the storage tank go? Good grief.
It would help stop confusion if you could learn to stop using terms like "regular one". If by regular one, you mean the pressure tank, you're wrong. The pressure tank has air in it that expands as water leaves. The storage tank, plumbed inline is no different than a 1" piece of vertical pipe. It stays full. Which of course is why you won't or can't address the example I gave of morphing a 1" vertical pipe that already supplies the house from the existing pressure tank into a 30" one. Does the 1" pipe empty when power goes out? no. Would a 2" pipe empty? no So why would the 30" pipe, ie a tank as I described empty?
It's actually kind of funny. At one point you were claiming that a storage tank would not drain through a drain valve if it were opened at the bottom. Now you're arguing that a storage tank magically drains on it's own, to parts unknown.
Thanks for repeating what I just told you.
It's not draining out. Water from the pressure tank is pushing water into the bottom of the inline storage tank and out the top. Just like if it were a 1" pipe, 2" pipe, 20" pipe, 30" pipe. Bingo, we have a storage tank! And stagnant water? Water is flowing through the inline tank all the time. Good grief, you're confused.
You're such a liar. My description was clear and consistent. My first post, I re-posted. And WTF? Your error about the tank draining? You're still saying the added storage tank drains. Good grief.
Just show us where I posted what you quoted above. I never said that strung together sentence. I never said to "change to fill at bottom". You're such a liar. I did say he could optionally use a tank of compressed air if he wants to get the water out of the faucets during an outage, instead of just drawing it in a bucket from the tank. And I said that in my very first post, before you even posted a word, idiot.
I brought up the water heater because it's a simple example of a tank that stays full of water when the power goes off. And it has nothing to do with the dip tube. You're focusing on the nits and ignoring the fundementals.
I could replumb a water heater so that instead of using the cold water connection on the top, I feed cold water into it at the bottom. If the power goes out, if I open a hot water tap, water will flow until the pressure reaches near zero. At that point the water heater will still be full of water. Capiche?
Many years on a well in a small town with frequent power outages. He is my final solution. I installed two 125 gallon tanks in the basement feeding 4 flojet DC pumps, powered by a 115 Ah deep cycle battery. At first we used them just for emergency, but I worried about water quality, chlorine treatments, etc, so, several years ago we switched and just run on the tanks all the time keeping the water fresh. The battery charges automatically and I manually fill the tanks from the well once a week. I considered an automatic fill system, but once a week is not a burden and it forces me to check the entire system weekly. We had a 4 day outage in 2011. The tanks and battery lasted the entire outage. I added a generator after that storm, but only use it for extended outages or extreme cold
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