t is kept full due to lack of any air in it. I which case you get stagnant water because it will never be replaced in normal operation or you can hav e it constantly being replaced in his system. The latter results in it drai ning at the same rate. You two do not seem to understand hydraulics very w ell.
air in it. I which case you get stagnant water because it will never be r eplaced in normal operation or you can have it constantly being replaced in his system. "
y air in it. "
in normal operation or you can have it constantly being replaced in his sys tem. "
inally said you get it, but obviously
tank to get it to drain. Any air in it at all in normal use just turns it into another pressure tank connected to a common hydraulic system.
rough that storage tank.
That is precisely what I proposed and what I and Stormin have been talking about.
being constantly exchanged.
water in the storage.
Ridiculous. You have an existing pressure tank, the type you'd have with any typical pump system. You put a second tank after that. Connect the incoming water to the bottom, connect the outgoing supply to the house at the top. The water is constantly exchanged. That is exactly what I propose d. Still don't believe me? Go take a look at your water heater tank and tel l us how that works.
but the house supply is still running through that storage tank.
us the water is being replaced.
The water is always replaced and flowing when you have an inlet at the bott om and an outlet at the top, with the tank in series with the supply. Hot wate r tank works because water comes in the bottom, goes out the top. Good grief .
Do it the way my house in Livingston Zambia was done. Big storage tank in the attic, vented to atmosphere, fill controlled by a float valve - gravity feed to to the faucets - including the "geyser".
His life really mostly ended 20 years earlier from smoking-related disabilities.
I think the emphasis on death by anti-smoking efforts is a mistake. People are prone to say "Well, if I die, I die and that's the end of it." Instead of death, I'd emphasis the years of invalidism leading up to it.
For younger people, who generally think they're superhuman and immortal, I'd emphasize the bad breath and body odor.
Here's a quote from "Licit & Illicit Drugs" by Edward M. Becher and the Editors of Consumer Reports.
Page 217: (describing the outcome of a NYC Syananon's members to give up cigarettes for economic reasons)...
"...About 100 people left during the six-month period following the ban and chose possible readdiction to drugs outside Synanon to life without cigarettes," the Times added.
'With most drugs,' one Syananon resident explained, 'you get over the symptoms in a few days, a week at most. But with tobacco, we've notice them for at least six months.' Another, who had personally 'kicked' both heroin and tobacco, made a comparison of the two even more startling than Dr Dole's: 'It was much easier to quit heroin than cigarettes.'"
Thanks for that, it is so sad watching my friends literally killing themselves and they seem completely incapable of quitting.
When my wife and I go shopping, on the way out of the store we look at the cartons of cigarettes...typically $75 . Our groceries for the week generally come out to less than two cartons worth.
Look at the flow chart again. well-pressuretank-house-storagetank. The storage tank is at the end of the 'pipe line" and has no exit. Water is not flowing in and out of it unless you somehow allow air to enter the tank.
Now you change it to a normal pressure tank - what happened to your idea of having 50 gallon storage when the power goes out and the regular tank empties?
Answer - you don't, all you have is the same amount of residual water just as if you had added a second pressure tank.'
The whole discussion was about how to have 50 gal water left after the first tank empties.
Now with well - storage - presuretank- house. Water is flowing through the storage at every cycle but does not empty when the power goes out. Even then I think there would be a problem getting air into the storage tank to allow it to drain.
That is the set-up as I understood it from your first post. I was wrong.
You put a second tank after that. Connect the
Already answered, it is in the pressurized system with input/output.
Correct, but I pointed out you can plumb it with the storage tank at the end of the run where the water is NOT running through the tank. That was my mistake in understanding your first post. Again I don't know how I got it that whay.
Bottom line is I still don't see any way to have 50 gal storage water left when the regular pressure tank empties.
One last try. One of us needs to use the 1/4 mile interconnect but must flush the line first.
Walk out and turn on any outside faucet and let it run. What happens? Answer, the line gets flushed and there is no need to use any other source of compressed air.
at is kept full due to lack of any air in it. I which case you get stagnan t water because it will never be replaced in normal operation or you can ha ve it constantly being replaced in his system. The latter results in it dra ining at the same rate. You two do not seem to understand hydraulics very well.
through that storage tank.
Odd, I could have sworn I already admitted you guys were right and I was lo oking at a different hook up.
You posted a chart? Where is that? The above is not a chart. And there is no pipeline to show how it's interconnected, what the flow is.
Only if you're dumb enough to plumb it that way. Of course that is not what I suggested. It's not what I and Stormin have been telling you about. I have clearly said over and over to put the tank in the water flow path. That's the simple, rational thing to do, so why are we back to a tank with only one connection, dead-ended?
Yeah, if you put the tank off on it's own, with only one connection. I said to put it in the water flow, with *two* connections. Take a look at your water heater.
I haven't changed anything. Good grief. One more time. You have a well with a typical pressure tank. You can put an additional storage tank inline with that. Most likely, you'd put it after the pressure tank. But you could put it before the pressure tank, ie between the well and the pressure tank and it would also work. It fills with water and stays filled during normal operation. In an emergency, the water is there.
Baloney. You have an additional tank full of water. Why is that so hard to comprehend? You have a 50 gal water heater. If you take it out, you have
50 gal less residual water.
And once again, I provided a solution. Put an additional tank inline.
Why doesn't it empty? Plugged up? If I open a drain at the bottom, water will run out. It will run out faster with a vent at the top, but even with no vent it will run out. Turn off your water supply and open the valve on the bottom of a water heater. Water comes out. Plus, it's trivial to add a vent valve. I even suggested that he could plumb in a tank of compressed air, then he's have pressurized water to the whole house.
You're still wrong, because the tank would still be full of water and avaialable whether it's before or after the pressure tank.
It's also in the pressurized system if it's *before* the pressure tank, at least in a typical system. The check valve is typically in the well.
Go look at your water heater. It has 50 gal of water left when the power goes out and you use up the pressurized water. Good grief.
I start the generator on the first weekend of every month, just to make sure it still runs and generates electricity. Starting this month, I'll also be starting the snow blower at the same time.
So you are unable to understand that those "-"s represent pipes between the tanks?
Now you have changed the storage tank to a pressure tank. Make up your min d. You cannot have a tank that has water coming in the bottom and out the top be a "pressure tank" - it is impossible.
I have also said REPEATEDLY that I misunderstood and was wrong.
nter the tank.
Again, that is what is what I ,isunderstood at the start and again I was WR ONG. Repeat after me "Harry was Wrong" Got it?
a of having 50 gallon storage when the power goes out and the regular tank empties?
Yes, and that is exactly what my little diagrams show. Don't forget though that BOTH tanks will drain. You won't wind up with 50 gal water left afte r the storage tank empties. That was my understanding of what he was after to begin with. I was probably wrong about that also.
If you are going to be using two pressure tanks there is no need to run the m in series, i.e., one with water in the bottom and out the top.
like you had added a second pressure tank.'
And in your lashup both tanks will drain and you won't have 50 gallons in r eserve. I really can see no way to hook one up so you would have it.
first tank empties.
Okay, what is keeping that 50 gal storage tank from draining? It is open a t top and bottom connected to the house supply.
the storage at every cycle but does not empty when the power goes out. Eve n then I think there would be a problem getting air into the storage tank t o allow it to drain.
Change the 'storage' to 'pressure tank' as you seem to be doing now and it will definitely drain
Atmospheric pressure working against the vacuum caused when the water tries to drain.
It _may_ drain by going "glug.....glug..." sucking air out of somewhere but I have my doubts.
Have you decided yet whether that second tank is pressure or just tank wit h water flowing through it? You can't have both.
roposed. Still don't believe me? Go take a look at your water heater tank a nd tell us how that works.
Correct
It can be either before or after. Mine happens to be neither - it comes of f a T to the pressure tank. Thus it draws water from either the tank or dir ect from the well when the pump is running.
essure but the house supply is still running through that storage tank.
and thus the water is being replaced.
e end of the run where the water is NOT running through the tank. That was my mistake in understanding your first post. Again I don't know how I got it that whay.
eft when the regular pressure tank empties.
Hmmm....Okay, that would work if you plumb in the storage tank to fill at t he bottom through a dip tube like the hotwater tank does.
Looks like a heckuva an investment...I presume must have retailed renewables as either primary or secondary business. Doesn't look like a working farm barn... :)
I'd swap my 40H JLG for the 60-ft Genie, though... :) Can't quite get to the cupola top from the basket to finish up the final flashing and reinstall the weathervane/lightning rod after the reroof.
Was going to comment...not sure what the economics actually would be on the solar/wind generation; can't think the payback can be anything but long even out here where the wind blows a lot--yet today the weather station monitor at my side is reading '0'.
It looks like we're going to have to drill new well sooner rather than later--probably next spring or the year after at the latest. I've not yet investigated thoroughly but have thought if the solar pumps are yet capable of the depth/required volume just might consider that instead of the two transfer-switch or the large re-wire to get both meters on one transformer.
There are a lot that use them for pasture watering for cattle where they can be long runtime fairly low volume but the ones I know of for sure are at lesser water table depths than here -- like 100-ft +/- rather than 300 where we'll have to end up; at 180-190 now and while we don't irrigate all the irrigation around us has dropped the water table to where we've had to restrict output to prevent pumping air until can drop the pump. Unfortunately, the current hole is only 200' and too small casing to be able to simply deepen it.
ind. You cannot have a tank that has water coming in the bottom and out th e top be a "pressure tank" - it is impossible.
I haven't changed a thing. Feel free to go back and look at my original post. I said put an additional tank after the existing pressure tank. Plu mb it so water comes in the bottom, goes out the top. Stormin understood what I meant. So, apparently did Anthony, who asked the question. I never said to use a pressure tank, a regular tank will work.
It's a tank full of water during normal operation. It is under pressure, the same pressure tha t the rest of the water system in the house is under. If the power goes off, you have that whole extra tank of water available for use. Open a drain valve at the bottom and it will run out into a bucket for use. I even said that if he wanted to he could have a tank of compressed air, nitrogen, etc available and plumbed in so he could have pressurized water during an outag e.
Again, how do you think a water heater works?
Yeah, after you took some cheap shots. But then you keep blathering on. Now it's some nonsense saying that I changed from "storage tank" to "pressure tank". Never did any such thing . I just said put in an additional tank and told Anthony exactly how to do it.
enter the tank.
WRONG. Repeat after me "Harry was Wrong" Got it?
dea of having 50 gallon storage when the power goes out and the regular tan k empties?
gh that BOTH tanks will drain. You won't wind up with 50 gal water left af ter the storage tank empties. That was my understanding of what he was aft er to begin with. I was probably wrong about that also.
Actually you will end up with that second tank full of water. If power goes out and you just use water from faucets, until the pressure goes to zero, does your water heater empty? The water heater doesn't empty. Neith er will the extra tank of cold water.
hem in series, i.e., one with water in the bottom and out the top.
Show me where I ever said to use two pressure tanks. You can't because I never did. A pressure tank has air. There is no need for it in a second tank that's used for additional water storage. Any more than there is in your water heater. You really need to think about the water heater. I've brought it up several times now and you continue to ignore it.
r like you had added a second pressure tank.'
No, the pressure will slowly drop, the air volume in the pressure tank will increase. The water volume in the second inline tank will stay the same, just like your water heater does. Whatever volume of water he can pull out of his existing pressure tank, before the pressure goes to zero, he can still pull. And at that point the storage tank will still be full. Just like your water heater.
That's because you continue to be totally confused. Try looking at your water heater.
e first tank empties.
at top and bottom connected to the house supply.
It's not open at the top. The top is connected to the cold water plumbing that feeds the house. The bottom is conntected to the pressure tank. EXAC TLY like your water heater. Let's say his existing cold water piping is 1" for the first 10 ft. Imagine that pipe gets bigger, 2", 10", 30". Morph it into a tank. That;s essentially what you have when you plumb in a second tank as I described. It stays full of water.
h the storage at every cycle but does not empty when the power goes out. E ven then I think there would be a problem getting air into the storage tank to allow it to drain.
t will definitely drain
I haven't changed, you're still confused.
es to drain.
So now you're telling me that if I open a drain valve in the bottom of a tank that's full of water and as long as there is no air vent at the top, water can't come out? You've never heard gurgle, gurgle?
Not that it matters, because again from the very first post I said to put a vent valve in the top or even connect it to a cylinder of compressed air.
ut I have my doubts.
You think? And I said put a vent if you want it to come out fast/easy or compressed air tank and he can have the house system pressurized and functioning. No gurgle required. Good grief.
ith water flowing through it? You can't have both.
Per my original post, it's just a tank. I never said to use a second pressurized tank.
proposed. Still don't believe me? Go take a look at your water heater tank and tell us how that works.
They why all the fussing before as to whether it's before or after?
the bottom through a dip tube like the hotwater tank does.
Good grief. No dip tube is required. The tank will fill via sn inlet at the bottom. A water heater would too.
For what it's worth, I did mention a second pressure tank in my original post.
The general idea was to connect two pressure tanks in parallel. When both tanks were full, shut off a valve to the second tank so it can't drain. If the power goes out and the first tank is empty, open the valve and you would have a second full tank of pressurized water.
Of course, the major drawback to this idea is that the water in the second tank would be stagnant. Not smart for long term storage.
The only way this would really work is if you had some kind of automated valve system that could alternate between the two tanks. When one tank is draining, the other could be refilling. When the first tank is drained, swap tanks and repeat.
As far as I know, no such valve exists?
For now, I'm planning to pick up a couple of five gallon water containers and store them in the pump house. I'll probably add a little bleach to each container just to sterilize the water, even though it's really only intended for flushing toilets. With 1.6 gallon toilets, that would give me five additional flushes once the main pressure tank runs out. That should be enough for the several hour time frame I've been trying to plan for.
Someday when I have more money than common sense, I might try the battery/charger/inverter option. :)
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