Oil vs gas water heating

I live in the northeast. We are landlords of a multi unit apartment. Currently, oil is going to be going up to $3.00 to $3.20 per gal. The local gas co is charging $1.55 per Therm. Most of the house uses gas for heat and hot water, each paying their own usage. The 1st floor uses oil for heat and hot water, which we pay for. It is occupied by a family of 5, which uses between 1000-1200 gal of oil per year. I turn the heat off after the heating season, leaving the furnace running for the hot water. The furnace is an old American Severn converted coal to oil burning unit, which my oil co tells me is in very good condition for its age. The burner is a Blue Angel Model HS. I don't know the efficiency of it. It is a forced hot water/radiator system. The hot water, currently runs off a small tankless unit, which does tend to run out of hot water on them frequently. It is showing signs of possible leaking, so I need to do something. My 2 options to bypass the tankless are: 1. Continue using the furnace, and installing a 30gal stainless steel indirect water heater, or 2. Install a 40 gal gas water heater, which would allow me to shut down the furnace completely, during the non-use period. According to my info, both heaters would suffice for the amount of usage needed. Which would be most cost effective, short and long term? Thank you.

Reply to
Recruiter
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Here's what I would do.....Go to

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and post your exact question on the "Wall" on that site. That group has bailed me out of a few situations.

Paul

Reply to
flansp78

Just go down to your local police station and wave your dick in front of them. I suspect you won't have to pay for heating or cooling for a very long time. Problem solved, that'll be 99.99.

Reply to
Al Moran

My sense is to go with the 40 gal gas heater. Since it's more common equipment, it will cost less than the indirect. And it will be more easily serviced, since more plumbers have worked on ordinary NG heaters.

As to the cost of fuel, I don't know. However, a coal unit converted to oil is not likely to be energy efficient. Even if it's in good shape.

Reply to
Stormin Mormon

i would replace the oil furnace, for better efficency, and then decide about a seperate or combined hot water tank.

my off the cuff opinion is you can probably save about 40% of you gas bill by upgrading.

incidently the oil company LOVES your furnace piggy, they are a business why recommend doing something to cut their sales:(

Reply to
hallerb

" I turn the heat off after the heating season, leaving the furnace running for the hot water.......The hot water, currently runs off a small tankless unit, which does tend to run out of hot water on them frequently. "

This is confusing. Is the current hot water supplied by the furnace or a seperate system?

In any case, I would agree with the comments that an old coal furnace converted ot oil is likely very inefficient compared to today's systems. I would seriously consider replacing it. Also, I would think that a seperate gas water heater is going to be more efficient than using a furnace to heat the hot water. In the winter, when the furnace is running to generate heat too, it may not make much difference. But I believe firing a larger furnace, especially an ancient one just to supply water is going to be a losing proposition.

You could also consider an on demand hot water gas system.

Reply to
trader4

I just had someone in from the oil co to give me some additional info. My burner is running at 78.5-80% efficiency. I probably don't need to upgrade the burner right now. Even he admitted that, although the furnace is in good condition, it is using much more oil than it probably should. Replacing the furnace w/ an internal water heater is about $5000 and a furnace with an indirect unit is about $6800. Both numbers are tough to swallow this year. The alternative is to cap the lines to the tankless and install a gas Water heater. According to the gas co, it should cost about $50/ mo to run the HW. On the other hand, according to the oil co, based on a 1200 gal consumpsion, probably 250 gal is HW. so now we are only talking about the difference of $600/yr for gas vs $750/yr for oil. On top of that, it will cost about $700 to install the new heater and cap off the tankless. Then, as a friend of mine reminded me, if the cost of gas continues to rise, the $150/yr difference disappears since the oil is capped at that price.

Reply to
Recruiter

I just had someone in from the oil co to give me some additional info. My burner is running at 78.5-80% efficiency. I probably don't need to upgrade the burner right now. Even he admitted that, although the furnace is in good condition, it is using much more oil than it probably should. Replacing the furnace w/ an internal water heater is about $5000 and a furnace with an indirect unit is about $6800. Both numbers are tough to swallow this year. The alternative is to cap the lines to the tankless and install a gas Water heater. According to the gas co, it should cost about $50/ mo to run the HW. On the other hand, according to the oil co, based on a 1200 gal consumpsion, probably 250 gal is HW. so now we are only talking about the difference of $600/yr for gas vs $750/yr for oil. On top of that, it will cost about $700 to install the new heater and cap off the tankless. Then, as a friend of mine reminded me, if the cost of gas continues to rise, the $150/yr difference disappears since the oil is capped at that price.

Reply to
Recruiter

Oil price is capped? I've never heard of that and can't prove it by my oil bills. Tell me more.

Reply to
Edwin Pawlowski

How do you reconcile the fact that it uses much more oil with the 80% efficiancy statement?

Replacing the furnace w/ an internal water heater is

Oil is capped? But for how long? Also, I think the guestimate you are getting from the oil company as to how much of the oil is going for heat vs hot water is probably just a shot in the dark. If they are close to being right, at $150 a year savings, a seperate gas water heater would pay for itself pretty quickly.

Reply to
trader4

That is only combustion efficiency, and not that great at that. A new furnace would certainly be much better than that. I'll bet you are running the hig 60's in total efficiency

I probably don't need to

Well, you need to do something, and the only thing with any real payback is a new furnace, and at 3.00 a gallon, only a 10 percent increase has a

10 year return more or less.

Both

while gas is no cheaper than oil[they track pricewise always], you can get a more efficient gas furnace than oil and usually cheaper. If you figure everything being equal[!] the swithc from your probably 70 percent at best to a 90 percent gas could save you 900 bucks a year in fuel[ at 3.50 a gallon oil]

when you figure in the probable lower service costs of the furnace, I'll bet it is almost free

Reply to
yourname

Actually, you have a third alternative. Buy the 40 gallon gas water heater, but don't bypass your tankless. Feed the gas heater with the output of the tankless. This will significantly cut down on the gas cost for the water heater during the heating season, yet allow you to turn off the boiler in the summer.

Reply to
Marilyn & Bob

Wow, $700 to install a gas water heater? I guess the price of copper musta gone up a lot. And, also, needs a custom run of black iron for the gas.

When wood stove guys old water heater loop, they have to dril a small hole in the cap, to let out the steam pressure. Sometimes old woodstove explode, to pressure in the internal heater loop. Not as much an issue on a boiler that maintains 140F or so.

Reply to
Stormin Mormon

snipped-for-privacy@aol.com posted for all of us... I don't top post - see either inline or at bottom.

Oh boy now Hallerbutt is here, will someone fix the skylight? He's not as bad as stumped but he's working on it.

Reply to
Tekkie®

Gee...and thats why all the new units we (we being a group of licenced pros, not guys like you) are installing at new construction sites are getting stolen. I guess thats why a lineset that used to be $50 is now $250. I guess thats why the average cost of a units gone sky high. I guess thats why people are getting arrested all around here due to the price of scrap copper...I guess thats why I cant find a section of old copper pipe out back..

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Reply to
aka-SBM

Ahh I find it IMPOSSIBLE to believe a coal furnace converted to a oil burner is 80% efficent. When was the conversion done? How many years ago?

Its highly possible the oil guy has a profit interest in you NOT relpacing that furnace:(

I would get a bunch of free estimates just for the heck of it. contact the manufdacturer of the oil conversion burner and ask about efficency of your unit.

your local gas station doesnt want you to buy a 50 MPG vehicle either, if you asked they would likely say your gas piggie is great.........

Reply to
hallerb

sears installs gas water heater for about a 100 bucks locally, might cost a bit more for vent.

your oil guy is a money hungry fellow, look into a new gas furnace and hot water tank

Reply to
hallerb

dont bother with a tankless, they cost way too much to buy.

i still think you should replace the furnace with a natural gas unit, but if your commited to just the hot water tank go with a 40 gallon natural gas....

Reply to
hallerb

I'm gonna start something....

They _do_ cost a bit, but let's look at the real costs.

A customer wanted a new gas WH. I gave her a price of $700.00. She also got a price for a heavily advertised brand of tankless WH of $3,500.00 I don't know the life expectancy of a tankless, but a tank type WH has an average life of 12-15 years. Without looking at the cost of gas and assuming a life of the tank WH's at 12 years, she could buy roughly 5 tank type WH's spanning 60 years.

Gas is the other thing in this equation. The tankless WH's have a minimum flow of about 3/4 GPM to make it come on. That's actually a pretty good flow and if your house has the galvanized pipes that are old and clogging up, you could be on the borderline of minimum flow. The gas valves are modulating for (I think) 20K BTU's to 199K btu's depending on the flow and the tank type (Standard 40 or 50 gallon WH) is close to 40K all the time. Run at full blast, the tankless has a consumption of 40K BTU/hr and the tankless has 199K BTU/hr.

I mentioned life expectancy of the unit earlier. I have no clue how long the tankless will last, but I do know that they have a lot of moving parts and I'm sure these parts ain't cheap to get and install. In 25 years in this industry, I've never replaced anything on a tank type except for T&P valves and thermocouples. IMO, the thermostat design has been around so long that they are nearly bulletproof.

Just some thoughts.....

(Yes Paul, I didn't remove the crossposted header)

Reply to
HeatMan

Tankless sound great till you run the numbers:(

A close cousin is the toyota prius, it costs so much more than a regular vehicle the payback for gas saved exceeds the life expectancy of the vehicle, espically when considering battery bank replacement $$$:(

both of these products were poroduced by marketing companies to maximise profits

I am all for saving energy but big business just looks at bucks of profits

Reply to
hallerb

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