Systemic pesticide for roses

[David E. Ross]

I don't need to memorize facts. I can look them up. Excuses -- like lies -- have to be memorized.

[David E. Ross]

Okay. This thread has generated more heat than light.

On one side are the organic-only dogmatics, who can't accept that (1) some natural, organic materials are more toxic than their artificial, non-organic replacements. On the other side are the "the rest of you be damned" polluters, equally dogmatic. Those of us who are pragmatists and sometimes use organic methods in our gardens and sometime do not have been insulted by both sides.

I have kill-filed this thread and will no longer participate.

I have kill-filed at least one participant who has a compulsion to answer every single message, whether he can add anything useful or not; instead, he only adds rudness and insults. I have kill-filed another one whose prose is more toxic than anything I could mix with the chemicals in my garage.

Two blocks from my home is a community garden with an "organic only" rule. I don't participate because not everything I do in my own garden follows organic principles. The people who do garden there are my friends. They accept why I don't have a plot in the community garden. They don't try to change me, and they don't shun me.

That's the way participants in this newsgroup should behave, not as if they are prosylitizing for a religion. Unfortunately, several participants in this thread have been acting as if theirs is the only way to God.

Good-bye from this thread. NO, I'm not abandoning rec.gardens. But if you post a message there that I seem to ignore, I might not have seen it. News reader filters can be very effective.

[Billy]

You don't have to add to the problem.

[Billy]

You contemptuous old bag of crap. You run from the truth as if it was scalding water. Hope you enjoy your view from the other side of the sod, soon.

[Sheila]

Aw, so you have the same problem with deer that I do. We are having to fence in our back yard, but it is certainly worth it to live in the country. I grew up on a working cattle farm and missed the country when I had to live close to a city for work. Now, I'm able to live in the country again.

[Charlie]

Yeahhhh.....dumb place to live and a major strain on the resources of others in other places.

Sounds like a stoopit place to live. Just like growing things in an area tha isn't natural to them. Moronic.

Again, stoopit...living in an area that has not enough water to support the *wants* of ignorant people. Sheesh.

How tiresome, your excuse to add to the planetary toxic load because you, and others of your kind, choose to live in a rather unihabitable area. Eff me, sounds like a toxic waste area, let's use your backyard for nuke waste storage. An area that wasn't meant to support the load to which it is being subjected.

Charlie

[Billy]

And thus another Monsanto Dracula shrinks from the illumination of enlightenment. Good riddance. People who can't justify their follies, should insinuate themselves into the shadows. Follies in the sense of its' French meaning, "madness". What else could one call the attacking of our life support system on this planet? This planet that bore us and cared for us. And what do these fools complain of, that they are reprimanded for poisoning the air, the water, the soil, and the food. Chemical fertilizers kill soil. Pesticides kill soil. Herbicides kill soil. GMO "Roundup" ready plants allow them to kill more soil. Do they make sensible counter arguments? No. Because there are none. Pesticides allow you to kill a pest at little effort but these fools don't want to consider the consequences. The pests can be controlled in other manners. Like David who wishes to spray poisons for a cosmetic problem. David is a southern Californian to who appearances are everything. Worth more than life itself apparently. For any pest there is a solution that won't poison the environment. You may have to make more of an effort, but you will be saving the planet.

-----

But back to the polyphenols, which may hint at the nature of that link. Why in the world should organically grown blackberries or corn contain significantly more of these compounds? The authors of Davis study haven't settled the question, but they offer two suggest theories. The reason plants produce these compounds in the first place is to defend themselves against pests and diseases; the more pressure from pathogens, the more polyphenols a plant will produce. These compounds, then, are the products of natural selection and, more specifically, the coevolutionary relationship between plants and the species that prey on them. Who would have guessed that humans evolved to profit from a diet of these plant pesticides? Or that we would invent an agriculture that then deprived us of them?

pg. 79 The Omnivore's Dilemma: A Natural History of Four Meals by Michael Pollan

[Billy]

And that has what to do with poisoning the biosphere? No, your not going to grow vegetable in the Utah Salt Flats but that's no reason to consider poisoning the area further. It's not just about YOU, Dave. It's about the planet, and topsoil, and the survival of h*mo sapiens.

[Billy]

I know that you aren't reading this Dave, which is good because it might be embarrassing for you but the UC IPM suggests Biological Control, Cultural Control, and Physical Control before they mention Chemical Control. But then, as we've seen, this is only to protect the plant from cosmetic damage. You know, you might be better off giving your lemon trees a little fish emulsion instead. Too bad you won't read this sage advice.

Now, are you truly gone?

Oh yes, I'm the great pretender Pretending that I'm doing well My need is such; I pretend too much I'm lonely but no one can tell.

Oh yes, I'm the great pretender A drift in a world of my own I play the game; but to my real shame You've let me to dream all alone.

Too real is this feeling of make believe Too real when I feel what my heart can't conceal.

Oh yes I'm the great pretender Just laughing and gay like a clown I seem to be what I'm not; you see I'm wearing my heart like a crown Pretending that you're still around.

Too real is this feeling of make believe Too real when I feel what my heart can't conceal

Yes I'm the great pretender Just laughing and gay like a clown I seem to be what I'm not you see I'm wearing my heart like a crown Pretending that I'm not a clown

--

[Ernie Willson]

Dave,

I have to agree with you. There seems to be at least one "Dunce" on the organic side of the argument. I will no longer be baited by this know nothing.

EJ > >> I would like to use a systemic pesticide on my roses.

[The moderator]

Obama went organic, because it was the politically correct thing to do. Oddly he chose a Redwood swing set for the White House. Very un-pc.

[Boron Elgar]

Rather a Luddite approach. Tornado alley would be deserted. The entire Ring of Fire would be empty, hell, even the Egyptians would have never thrived near the Nile.

Boron

[Bill]

Why all the fuss ?

Look at the map and then think 1900 Imperialist's and then who are they and what color on the map. Some things never change that much.

Bill who wonders what the opposite of a Luddite or Anarchist is ? IMF, Imperialist's , Colonialist guess there are more.

Good Book by Andrew Bard Schmookler

"Debating The Good Society" subtitled "A quest To Bridge America's Moral Divide"

[Boron Elgar]

You're over the edge and into fanaticism, not even to mention taking this entire topic 12 ways to Sunday in different directions, each of which seems to serve some political agenda. Really, this is one load of over-ripe manure and not one that will benefit any plants.

I have a great idea. Go outside and play in the dirt.

Boron

[Bill]

Over the edge of what and what is 12 ways to sunday ?

Incoherent but perhaps it sort of strikes a chord and potential whirls about.

Bill

[Billy]

I'm afraid all the facts have put the troglodytes into bunker mode. If they don't understand it, they think it's an attack. I think Boron missed the point about the ecological foot print and since the west consumes the majority of the power in the world, a quarter of the worlds energy. That is a very large denominator and will give a small ratio when "life expectancy and life satisfaction/ecological foot print" is computed. But it is very sobering to see France listed near the bottom, for the same reason as the USA. Would I want to be a Columbian because I would know that I had a small ecological foot print? I don't think I'm ready for sainthood yet.

A more familar table of quality of life can be found at

but this doesn't include the cost to the planet. It doesn't reflect sustainability and sustainability was what we were talking about. The fact that there are areas of the world that are inhospitable to humanity, is besides the point. The point is can humanity continue to be inhospitable to the planet?

Good, thought-provoking site. Thanks.

[Frank]

Heh... guess who invented heroin.

They meant well enough, I guess.

[Frank]

Easier not to buy.

[Garrapata]

On the Monterey Peninsula California mountain lions have been killing deer. There have been kills in residential neighborhoods practically in downtown Pacific Grove and Carmel

[Billy]

Sounds weird, like it was natural or somethin' ;O)