Electrical planning- kitchen- # of circuits

I'm planning a kitchen remodel, and I always like to have a complete plan before I get started on projects (self or hired contractors). I also have a tendency to overengineer my projects, but now I'm in a situation where I need to know where I can pull back a little, because I have a limited number of unused circuits in my electrical box and I'm trying to avoid the large additional cost of upgrading my panel.

My house was built in the 1870s, and the current kitchen has limited electricity. I haven't fully traced the existing wires yet, but I believe that I have the following:

  • Main house circuit (knob and tube) supporting other rooms plus one kitchen light and two kitchen non-grounded outlets.
  • Fridge (may or may not be on it's own circuit
  • Stove (I think this is on a separate circuit)

My intent during the remodel is to move the fridge and put in more outlets and lights, plus a microwave, dishwasher and disposal. In the perfect world, I'd do the following, but since I don't have enough circuits I'm wondering if there is anywhere I'm overengineering my plan, where I could consolidate and save a circuit.

Run new wires and use the existing circuit breakers:

---------------------------------------------------

  • 1 circuit to the stove/oven. May also support one BP by the stove for handheld blender use on the stove
  • 1 circuit to the fridge (stays on separate circuit to avoid food spoilage)

NEW circuits needed:

--------------------

  • NEW circuit to a new built-in microwave oven to be installed above the stove with a vent fan
  • NEW circuit for the countertop BPs (for countertop appliances like mixers, blenders, wafflemakers, etc.). This circuit might share the new kitchen lighting, which would include undercabinet LED or halogen, 3 pendant lights from the ceiling (60W each).
  • NEW circuit with just the dishwasher and disposal.

Of particular interest are the last two- is it appropriate/necessary to run the dishwasher and disposal on a separate circuit, or is it possible to put them on the same (GFCI) circuit as the BPs and lights?

Thanks for any advice, Keith

Reply to
ker_01
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Reply to
jloomis

Hi Keith,

Things have changed a lot since the days of a single circuit for the entire kitchen, except for a separate range circuit. My in-laws house is wired the same way.

These days you should (and I believe code now requires) separate circuits for each major appliance. This usually means:

60A - 240V circuit for range/oven 20A - 120V circuit for refrigerator 20A - 120V circuit for microwave 20A - 120V circuit for dishwasher 20A - 120V circuit for garbage disposal.

You also must have "TWO" 20A-120V small appliance circuits (the kitchen outlets). The outlets themselves must be no more than four feet apart (since most small appliances only have 2 foot cords), and any counter 2 feet or larger must have an outlet available. It usually works best to alternate your outlets along long runs of counters. One outlet is on the first circuit, second outlet is on the second circuit, third outlet is on the first circuit, and so on. You can save cable by using 12/3 wire for these two circuits, alternating which hot leg you use for every other outlet.

You also need a separate 15A or 20A circuit for the kitchen lighting. As far as I know, lights are not allowed on the appliance circuits. But you can put the range hood fan/light (not a microwave) on the lighting circuit.

If your dining area is part of the kitchen (i.e. not a separate room), any outlets should be on the kitchen small appliance circuit. The dining lights can go on the kitchen lighting circuit. I also put small items like our doorbell and ceiling fan on the kitchen lighting circuit (both are in our dining area).

You might be able to use those breakers that have two circuits in a single breaker to pack more circuits into limited panel space.

Or, you could install one larger breaker and install a subpanel somewhere with as many breakers as you need for the kitchen.

You might want to pick up a copy of "Code Check Electrical". It's not a "how-to" type of book, but it's a good reference for code requirements.

Hope this helps,

Anthony

Reply to
HerHusband

OK, sounds good.

OK, but best have two circuits.

No, don't share, make this its own circuit.

No, once circuit for each. Both are high draw applicances and will not work well together on one circuit.

I'm conservative, others will say I'm nuts, but... Seperate circuits for dishwasher, disposal, two for outlets, one for dedicated hood/microwave, one for lighting and misc, one for fridge, one for stove. If the stove does not have a built-in outlet, then that 'stove' outlet should be on one of your two outlet circuits.

Make 100% sure the main box can handle the load, that the wireing from the meter to the box is sufficient as well. You have to assume that at some point you will have the stove, microwave, dishwasher, and disposal all on at one time, and then there's the coffee pot, and the toster oven to consider. That's a big power draw there, so everything downstream needs to be able to handle it.

It may make sense to have the local utility come out and ensure that their meter and wires to the meter will handle the loads as well.

Of course, use a licensed electrian for the actual work.

Reply to
PeterD

I think a subpanel for the kitchen is an excellent idea. Actually for *all* kitchens.

In addition to appliances which need separate 20 amp circuits, I feel that each counter outlet should be on its own 20 amp circuit. This is because there are quite a few counter top appliances which are energy hogs like a waffle iron, deep fryer, electric skillet, hot plate, etc. Then lighting should be on a separate circuit.

So a kitchen subpanel would easily allow all these separate circuits without taking up all the circuits in the main panel.

Also good idea to have 4 outlets for every counter outlet and space them 2 ft. apart. (Never enough outlets on the counter in a kitchen!)

Reply to
Bill

It really depends on where your main panel is located. Mine is located on the backside of the kitchen wall in the laundry room, with plenty of breaker slots available. So there's no reason or advantage to use a subpanel.

Of course, kitchens have a lot of circuits so a subpanel is a smart idea if your main panel is a good distance from the kitchen.

We have a relatively small kitchen, and still have over 8 outlets. That's a lot of circuits to run individually, and you would need even more for larger kitchens.

Besides, you're unlikely to use more than two or three of those appliances at a time, and most won't use anywhere near the capacity of a 20A circuit. Even using two appliances on each of two circuits would mean four appliances going at once. I'd be hard pressed to think of an instance we ever had more than two going at once (toaster and coffee maker).

But there would be no harm in adding more circuits if you feel the need and have the available breaker slots.

That might make sense if you plan on leaving the appliances plugged in all the time. We always unplug ours and store them in the cabinets.

Anthony

Reply to
HerHusband

This only works if (a) each receptacle is its own GFCI or (b) the 12/3 circuit is protected by a GFCI breaker.

Wayne

Reply to
Wayne Whitney

Really bad idea. Won't meet code, creates a fire hazard (you will have a 12 AWG return with the potential of 40 amps (two 20 amp breakers) flowing. Even if the two circuits are on different phases, the problems are significant, and this should not be done.

Wire is not *that* expensive that there is a reason to be cheap to the point of creating a hazard.

Reply to
PeterD

NOT a bad idea and is actually very common practice. Of course the circuits are on opposite legs. It's called an edison circuit and is done in most kitchens. AND there's no hazard about it.

s

Reply to
S. Barker

(please, please bottom post!)

Not a good idea as too many times either the installer doesn't realize that they should be on different phases, or someone comes along later and moves one of the lines so they are both on the same phase.

Personally, I'd never do this, and would reject any work that included this technique.

Reply to
PeterD

If fed by a double pole breaker, this shouldn't be a problem. Wayne

Reply to
Wayne Whitney

Unless codes have changed since I wired our house in 2004, "multiwire" (edison circuits) were allowed by code (210.4A) and were quite common for kitchen circuits.

Having said that, I did install separate breakers and run individual lines to my two kitchen circuits. I just liked the idea of keeping circuits separated.

I generally reserve the use of 3 conductor cables to appliances that need

240V, or in situations where I want both an always on hot (the black wire), and a switched hot (the red wire). For example, I used 12/3 in our living room to run to all the outlets, with the red wire controlled by a light switch. With a simple wire change at the outlet, I can configure it to be always on, or switched by the light switch. Works great for moving the Christmas tree around.

I also used 12/3 for some of the kitchen lights. It was a long cable run from the switches on the end of the counter, down under the floor, up a

14' tall wall, and back down along the ceiling. I used the black wire for the light over the sink, and the red wire for the overhead ceiling lights. Both on the same circuit, of course. It saved over 50' of extra cable.

Anthony

Reply to
HerHusband

You keep making assumptions about people and the future! Say that double pole breaker fails some day. Say that one side fails. Say the (idiot) replaces just the failed side, leaving the other side still on the double pole breaker.

Now the odds are 50/50 it will be wrong!

(and never, ever, underestimate what people will do!)

Reply to
PeterD

As long as there is only one breaker, then that is great! I like you using the two wires to allow individual configuration of outlets from switched to unswitched... Again, on the same breaker that's a good trick.

Reply to
PeterD

If it's a double pole breaker, you can't replace just one side. And when was the last time you heard of a breaker going bad?

s

Reply to
S. Barker

For what it's worth -- which probably is not much -- you can't have too many outlets in the kitchen.

I lost my home under construction to Hurricane Katrina and have since moved to eastern Virginia where Sweet Thing and I purchased a lot and will break ground this week. We are renting a huge house -- 3,500 sq ft, on the market for almost $800,000 but it sits dead in the water because of the real estate bust -- no buyers so the owner is renting it to us.

The current owner -- my landlord -- purchased this house and "upgraded" the kitchen. Her upgrade consisted of granite countertops, ( faux ) cherry cabinets, and stainless appliances -- and the kitchen is damn near worthless because:

-- There are only three duplex outlets in the kitchen ( not counting the one buried behind the fridge and the dedicated lines for the dishwasher and stove igniters ).

-- Those three outlets are arranged along the wall behind the sink.

-- No one thought to put lights under the cabinets, so, she stuck a couple of after-market fluorescents under each cabinet -- the cords for these dangle down over the counter and plug into the outlets, thereby occupying 1/3 of the outlets with the under-cabinet lights.

-- Across the kitchen from the sink is a perfect work area -- a 13- foot long granite counter, 2 feet deep, with a prep sink, adjacent to the fridge and pantry, lots of room for slicing, dicing, chopping, washing, etc., -- EXCEPT -- there's not a single outlet anywhere close to this counter -- no place to plug in blender, toaster, food processor, electric skillet, or anything else. So -- when we cook for a crowd, which we do 3-4 times a month, I run two heavy-duty extension cords from the kitchen, one into the dining room, one out into the hall, and plug them into 15-amp outlets to get power for food processor, blender, and the like. Yes, I know this is not smart but what else am I to do?

In the new house that I'm building, I'm putting a sub-panel for the kitchen with 20A outlets all over the place.

And granite countertops and stainless appliances are not what they're knocked up to be.

( By the way, the landlord "upgraded" the bathroom, too, but that's another story -- wall tiles on the shower floor so it's as slick as snot on a doorknob -- and that's just the beginning. )

Reply to
Old Redneck

If one side of the breaker fails, it's simple to drop in a single pole breaker and move the wire to it. There, now you've replaced 1 side of a double pole breaker. Breakers go bad all the time. Especially near the ocean in humid, salty air, like where I live. Some areas are harder than others on electrical equipment.

Reply to
Art

Actually not that long ago. (sorry, but yes, I've seen them fail)...

My biggest problem is with the person who comes along 'next' and does something *really* stupid, mainly because he doesn't realize that it is an Edison wired circuit. I see people doing things with limited knowledge, and the odds that it will come back and 'bite' them are really bad!

When working with electrical systems, things need to be as foolproof as possible, there are just too many fools running around in today's world.

Reply to
PeterD

wrong. double pole breakers are molded together. You can't remove half of it.

s
Reply to
S. Barker

(Please bottom post!)

Again, wrong. Never, ever underestimate what someone else can and will do... All the idiot who does this has to do is remove the wire from the defective side, and put it on another breaker. Leaving the 'non-devective' side connected. The odds that that second breaker will be on the wrong phase are mathematically 50/50, but in real life, the odds are 100% they will get it wrong.

Again, you cannot rely on the next person working on the circuit to do the right thing, especially if it is not clear that it is an Edison circuit, and if they don't understand the implications of such a circuit.

Reply to
PeterD

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