Why all the TS and hardly any BS

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I've been perusing craigslist looking for a BS but don't see nearly as many of them as I do TS or jointer Ads. The few I do find are never at 'rock bottom' prices like the TS posts are (fairly easy to pick up a decent TS for $100).
Using my own anecdotal situation I can only surmise that it is because you don't buy a BS until you are serious about WW and therefore less likely to sell it for a song.
Are there any other sites out there similar to craigslist I can scan for tools?
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In my area there's a web version of the want ads for the local newspapers but CL seems to be beating it into the dirt. There's fewer ads in it every month.
Here in Madison WI, I looked for a used table saw for almost a year before I broke down and bought a Griz. Couldn't find a used one for less. The bandsaw I bought used from Woodcraft when they replaced all the classroom saws with new ones. I was lucky enough to walk up just as they were putting the sign on it.
I've sort of kept looking in the want ads and Craigslist, and there's been maybe two or three of each in the last couple years that were around a hundred (I'm talking about full size - there were several benchtop models of each for about a hundred)
I've come to the conclusion that most of the buyers around here have more money than sense, and the sellers know it. Everything seems to sell for way more than it's worth. Noticing that little fact will probably help me with a sideline when I retire. Assuming the economy hasn't collapsed completely, I guess.
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Since I lived in Madison and Dane County for about 12 years about 25 years ago, I don't mean to insult you or your community.... But Madison's economy was (is) dominated by the University and the State Government. When I lived there, it was more likely to find an amateur string quartet or a pottery maker than a woodworker. Trust me, used pottery wheels and basement kilns should be more common than BS. Plus the population is small.
The place for you to search for used BS is, of course, Chicago, the Twin Cities, or maybe Milwaukee. Larger population, more chances someone will be selling. Then again, there is the cost of transportation.
Anyway Just IMHO.
Phil
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On Fri, 12 Oct 2007 23:20:01 -0400, "Phil-In-Mich."

Or a "Trekkie". Like this, not the space kind:
<http://www.trekbikes.com/us/en/company/factory_tour/
--------------------------------------------- ** http://www.bburke.com/woodworking.html ** ---------------------------------------------
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"RayV" wrote

The band saw is traditionally thought to be better suited to those who make more furniture than cabinets and are not considered a necessity by many woodworkers, therefore there are likely fewer of them around, as you've noted.
Also a factor, IMO ... the first of the "big three" "American made" woodworking tools (TS, Jointer, Band Saw) to be subjected to the ignominy of value/price point engineering and Asian cheapening by the MBA corporate mentality, the older used American made band saws, like the Delta 28-299, are therefore difficult to find, more valued, and command a higher price.
YMMV ...
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SNIP

more furniture than cabinets and are >not considered a necessity by many woodworkers, >therefore there are likely fewer of them around, as you've

I think too that there is a difference in the US on how the table saw is viewed vs. the bandsaw. I have read in a couple of places and watched shows that explain that the table saw is USA phenomena. Apparently (all European woodworkers please chime in!) in Europe space is at a premium and home shops are confined to basements or an odd room. They don't build a 20X20 in the back yard or take up one of the garage bays because they build their housing differently.
There was a documentary on the "vanishing" European furniture craftsman, and every one had a nice bandsaw (a la Leon) that they ripped, cross cut, sized and shaped with. Not one had a table saw.
I think the table saw became the heir apparent to the radial saw, and with Norm (20 years ago) and others quickly taking up the flag for it to the be franchise tool to build the shop around. It has been inculcated (hey Swing... you used ignominy!) into our system of building to the point that people think you need one to be able to function in the shop.
Back in the 70s before the table saw became the king of the shop, we ALL had radial saws as they seemed like the could do anything. And they could do anything, just not much of it well.
I wouldn't worry about seeing good bandsaws all over the place though. I think that soon it will be the new wonder tool, and as an avid turner I can tell you that many turners consider the bandsaw a "must have" companion to the lathe for its capacity to make turning blanks. I personally believe that's why we see all the stiff column style bandsaws now. They are much easier to make, cheaper to make, easier to ship, cheaper to ship, and cheaper for he consumer.
It won't be long until one of TV guys discover its potential and it could wind up the "it" tool.
As always, just my 0.02.
Robert
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LOL.
Aye, I did ... disgraceful or dishonorable conduct, quality, or action ... as in bend over and kiss "American made", and your ass as a result, good by.
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Holy cow Robert - we disagree on something. Never thought I'd see this day. It is my experience that the radial arm saw only attempted to gain some of the table saw's prominence - and failed at that. The table saw certainly had the reputation as the one tool to have if you were only going to have one tool, long before Norm came on the scene. I can remember back to the 60's when it was king and extending that a bit by the evidence of the table saws from the 50's that I encountered, I'd say that as far back as the 50's it was the king of the shop. Norm is just a recent advocate of a long standing truth.

That's the thing - in the 70's is when I saw the radial arm movement trying to gain momentum. Maybe even the late 60's. Thing is, I never saw it gain enough momentum to even come close to displacing the table saw.
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table saws have been the mainstay of woodworking in the small/ medium shop pretty much since the first unisaw rolled off of the production line in 1939- and the reason it was developed then was because there was already a demand for quality table saws. unfortunately for the small shop, until that time there wasn't much in that middle size category. table saws were either large industrial units or cheezy lightweight underengineered homeowner stuff, and the 10" machines available were tilting table with poorly standardized arbor sizes and miter slots. there were some really high quality versions of those tilt-table saws, but I'm guessing that they were beyond the means of the typical home shop.

radial arm saws (IMO) are a machine that if you have the space for it you should eventually get one- but it should probably be the last, fill in the niche purchase you make rather than the first, do everything with one machine purchase.
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Hey Mike! Good to see you around here. I miss seeing your posts. And hey... great minds can't always think alike, right? ;^)

the table saw's prominence - and failed at that. The table >saw certainly had the reputation as the one tool to have if you were >only going to have one tool, long before Norm came on the >scene.
I am basing my remarks from experience in the early 70s, when I had a friend that worked at Sears. (No comments about Sears, please, this was 35 years ago) in the tool department. They had a hard time selling the table saws as the big new interest was the radial. And Sears probably sold more than anyone.
Just to keep this in context, keep in mind a couple of things. At one time, Sears was a real player in the tool world and made/sold good tools. Remember, 35 years ago.
And before the advent of cheapie table saws, there came the radial saw. They said that it could be used as a miter saw (not really), a crosscut saw (if you had the pawl on it), a molding maker (run for cover if you tried this), a rip saw (no #^$@# way), and all kinds of other things. I have one sitting in my shop that hasn't been turned on in many years, and it even has a PTO on it!
I actually only saw real table saws in professional shops, cabinet shops, and as tools for professional contractors. I don't recall seeing a table saw in too many places other than there. And to be fair, our city was only about 550,000 in population, and there weren't Woodcrafts, etc., where you could go look at large tools to buy. There was no place to go look and touch a Delta, Walker Turner, Rockwell or Powermatic. There was no Jet, Grizzly, or home line of Delta tools, only big boy stuff.
And back then I couldn't have afforded them anyway. So my first table saw was a Sears, and it was a pretty good little saw. I never trusted the radial saw for anything more than what I learned to use it for (hand cut roofs on apartments where my job was to crown the rafters and cut 5/12s on 20' 2X10s).
But I remember that when I started doing home repairs and remodeling, every weekend warrior whose house I went to had a radial saw. The proud owners couldn't wait for me to see their toy and revel at the fact they could do everything on one tool that took the normally equipped guy several tools to do.
And think about the old table saws we used to use... repeatabillity? Don't think so. When I worked for a commercial contractor my boss had started out in a custom cabinet shop, so he showed me how to set up the saws and fences. The old box tube fences, single cam locks and the pieces of plumbing pipe (some chromed! with numbers! were about as easily repeatable as rolling all strikes at the lanes. I'll bet a lot here remember how to set up the fence with a steel stamped ruler.
And table saw cut miters? Think of what came with the old saws. A big lump of iron with numbers cast into it. All it had was a friction screw to hold it in place. Not much repeatability there, and my radial saw actually had detents at 22.5 and 45 degrees. Click in a cut! I remember shimming those old miter gauges with pieces of tin, putting a dime under them and all kinds of other "precision" adjustments.
But the radial offered the home guy a way to get through the setup. Supposedly, once you got the saw adjusted correctly you had repeatability plus with the machine whether for miters or ripping. I could never keep one in adjustment for more than a couple of days, so it didn't work for me.
I always thought the 10" radials were built for the home shop, and they were just too much for most home guys to resist. Although I don't know but one or two guys that have one now, I think everyone I know has had one at one time or another. And let's face it, if you are building a set of bookshelves one month, patio furniture another, flower boxes and bird houses and just an occasional cabinet, what's wrong with that saw?
Anyway, as a sidebar, look what the radial saw spawned: the motorized miter saw (I still have my 30 year old Sears that is all cast iron), gauges all over everything to speed repeatability, sliding miter saws that will cut big width lumber, and probably a few more. I sure had high hopes for mine (bought it used for about .20 on the dollar) but it just wasn't what I thought it could be.

it was the king of the shop. Norm is just a recent advocate >of a long standing truth.
I agree - but then I was talking about popularity for the HOME shop, not the reality of everyday use in production shop. Anyone spending a couple of weeks with this thing as their main machine would quickly realize that their weaknesses are too many to make it worthwhile as a reliable machine. But if you only build a bookcase or so when it isn't football season, the weather isn't too hot or too cold, when the Series doesn't have your team in it, or it isn't hunting or fishing season, it seemed to me that this was the manly tool to have in the neighborhood.

to gain momentum. Maybe even the late 60's. Thing is, I >never saw it gain enough momentum to even come close to >displacing the table saw.
Certainly NEVER in a pro shop. The only pro shop I know that had a radial had one of those old monster DeWalts that had a 12" or 14" blade on it and was used only to cut shelves and sides for upppers to length. But I think of all the houses I go to now for estimates and work, and so many still have those things like I do, collecting dust in the corner, but not too many have NICE table saws. I do see those gawdawful universal motored tornadoes a lot though.
As always, just my 0.02.
Robert
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... and High School woodshop, where it impressed the hell out of me (who had theretofore done all ripping and crosscutting with hand saws).
When I was growing up in the late forties, early fifties, and although my grandfather had a saw mill, his shop had nothing but hand tools.

Mine also ... it was a "bench top", but I used it mainly kneeling down by it on the floor and thought it was the cat's meow. I worked in the tool and sporting goods department during the holidays in college and took advantage of my employee discount in tools and shotgun shells.

I used a borrowed RAS to build my first studio ... still shudder thinking about it. Never really cared to venture further into using that tool, although I do know a few who still use one frequently ... mostly old codgers who's idea of "joinery" is a ten penny nail. :)
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I think once or twice is about enough for most. I tried though as I just kept thinking how cool it would be if it actually worked half as well as the hype.

And a wad of "cork"? (AKA .. caulk). However, with the guys I have in mind, "cork" may be more appropriate for closing up their joints!
Robert
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wrote:

And we'll take that - as long as those great minds are thinking at all - huh?

And that's where perspective and observation meet. Funny how that works, isn't it? In this case, I think back 35 or 40 years to what I remember. To some extent, so do you. But... then along comes that reality thing - those saws you see in the garage collecting dust. In my case, as I was reading what you had written (and I snipped) the thought came to me that homeowners had indeed embraced the radial arm saw more robustly than the table saw. It had all of that appeal as being the versatile tool. The table saw was the first big tool I had ever been exposed to, so of course it was my natural tool. Everyone that I knew that was a serious woodworker, or a pro had a table saw and it was pretty much the centerpiece of their operations. Sorta affects your perspective - makes you think they're all over the place.
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Amen! These days I'll take what I can get, that's for sure.

isn't it? In this case, I think back 35 or 40 years to what I >remember. To some extent, so do you.
Absolutely. And I rely on what I remember (boy that can be scary!) to form my opinions.

BUT... never in a "pro shop" unless I see them used as a cut off saw. My laminate countertop guy has a giant old Dewalt 16", and another cab guy I know uses them to size shelving and cut cabinet sides. That's pretty much it.
Although while out the other day I did see a crew framing a monster house and they were cutting the rafters just like we did a million years ago, two at a time.

came to me that homeowners had indeed embraced the >radial arm saw more robustly than the table saw. It had all of that >appeal as being the versatile tool.
And they sold it that way too. I even remember that when Home Depot came to town (early-mid 80s?) they sold a radial saw because the demand was so hight. And I have to say 99 of 100 radials I see in a garage are old Sears saws. Talk about the promise of a versatile tool.... I bought mine very slightly used in the late 70s, and it had the following: a super heavy duty stand, two rip gauges, rip pawl, plate sanding disk, hand held buffer attachment for the PTO, molding heads (I kid you not!), a wobbler style dado head, an adjustable stainless steel detent plate for all popular miter settings, large marked degrees angles on the head adjustment, and other things. I paid $225 for that saw, and with all the stuff it was about $1200 retail, even then. The homeowner bought it from never got any good out of that saw at all.
I thought I was set... I knew most of that stuff didn't work, but I was happy wih the price. I have to say though, the saw has paid for iteself many, many times. Like many here, I used to make cabinets before it was easier and cheaper to just buy them. (After all, the Cardell factory is here in town). The way I learned to build cabinets is kind of the old classic carcass style, so we had some mortising and lots of square cuts when facing shelves and sizing for drawers. Using this thing for a cutoff saw was tough to beat. With a 10,000 tooth hollow ground blade in the machine (and after its daily tuneup) you could saw the daylights out of a pile of plywood for shelves and drawer sides.
And before we all had the monster routers and all the cool stuff to go with them so we can abuse them as shapers, I used it to dado fixed shelves in, and to mortise for that little 3/8" inlet for the upright part of KD adjustable shelf brackets, or to rabbet out the back of a cabinet. To this day I don't have an easier machine to the first two of those operations. Walk over, set the depth, read the rip gauge, shove the material through. Done.

it was my natural tool. Everyone that I knew that was a >serious woodworker, or a pro had a table saw and it was pretty >much the centerpiece of their operations.
True. When I took a spell of just doing my duties as a general contractor, I subbed out all the cabinets to a great guy. He had two monster Delta table saws, 12" I believe that ran on 230v. He made his own rip fences and faced his large tables that surrounded the saws with formica. That was a really nice shop, and they used a big sled to cut shelves, drawers, etc. on their table saws.

Yeah, that's true. I worked with a lot of folks over the years that have come from all over the country. A lot of methods and choice of weapons are the same, but a lot are very different, too. Not too many worm drive saws around here at all, not even on framing crews. But on my trips to California, that's all I saw. I have used a circular saw so long I can't imagine not have them, and I have four that I use fairly regularly, each for something different. But no worm drive. Guess it >is< what you grew up with.
Robert
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I worked in an altar factory in the mid-'50s: we had a monster radial arm saw there, but it was pretty much a cut-off tool, about the only thing I got to run other than a damned broom. The table saw did all the ripping and other major work, while the RAS cut things to length. Today, we have SCMS to replace the RAS, added to the fact that the ability to use an RAS for rip cuts scares the pee out of a lot of people. Besides, it has only been around since some time in the '20s, anyway, so it's never been the dominant saw.
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I got a chuckle out of that one. I swept the floor so often they wrote my name on the broom and would say, "hey Robert, go get your tool and go to work over there, will ya?"

Count me in with those guys. I have shot my last piece of trim out of the shop or into a wall while trying to use that POS to rip. It scared the crap out of me when it launched a piece of 1X2 out of the shop. It had the pawl marks on it, but that still didn't stop it. I never even knew why it grabbed...
Robert
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Working in a retail hardware store as a high school kid, first job every morning was to sweep the floors.
I still have the technique.
Using a push broom is an art form.
Lew
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On Wed, 17 Oct 2007 00:53:21 -0700, "Lew Hodgett"

You know, my dad tried to "teach" me to use a push broom correctly when I was a teenager. I really didn't want to learn :-), but I never did at that time get the little tap at the end of each push and never learned the rythm. Only when I was old and keeping the shop floor, the driveway and the patio clean became somehow more "important" did I figure it all out. I still am a piker compared to how well and effortlessly he used that broom.... Strange what will set off memories as we get a little older (and as some will say, weaker in the head).
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"Swingman" wrote

Just to preclude confusion with the mishmash of Delta's model numbers, and in case you're lucky enough to run across a used Delta, the base unit for the above, IIRC, was a "28-212" ... you won't see "28-299" on any of the parts, as that number designated a "limited edition" promotion number ... still one of, if not the last of the "American Made" Delta band saws.
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RayV wrote:

That's my vote.
The typical home improvement DIY woodworker, working with home center materials and composites, may legitimately never see the need for a band saw. Then there's the matter of getting a BS to perform to it's potential.
I've been looking for a used non-benchtop mortiser for years. Same deal...
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