Varnish = Urethane ????

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Leon wrote:

Which still does not mean that the polyurethane classifier shoes used in taconite mining are made of varnish, even though they may be translucent.
--
--John
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Yes.. We should probably leave clothing and similar items out of the mix. LOL
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Leon wrote:

It's not quite that facetious though--the company that makes the classifier shoes sells the formulation they use in cans and it can be used as a coating. So does it become a varnish merely by applying it to a surface?
--
--John
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I suppose, by definition, and the intended purpose was use it as a varnish.
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On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 21:24:36 GMT, "Leon"

Then I suggest you re-read that more carefully.
It states that varnishes are paints, and that varnishes are transparent.
It does _not_ state that paints are varnishes.
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wrote:

Point made. I Stand corrected on this point. However, white wash, is not totally opaque and is considered paint.
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Back to our regularly scheduled programming...
FWW online has a nice article on finishes this month:
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/pages/w00060.asp
m
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JMWEBER987 wrote:

There are polyurethane-based varnishes and there are varnishes with other bases and there are polyurethane-based coatings that are not varnishes. All varnish is not polyurethane and all polyurethane is not varnish.
Whether a polyurethane varnish is suited to your purpose depends on your purpose.
--
--John
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True. Shellac and Paint are "Varnishes".
and all polyurethane is not varnish.
False. Unless you are relating to something like Polyurethane Glue.
Varnish is a generic term for anything that is used for the protection or decoration of surfaces and may be transparent, translucent, or tinted.
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snipped-for-privacy@swbell.net says...

And BS is BS.
While the above is, by dictionary definition, technically true,
*********************************************************************** PRONUNCIATION: vrnsh KEY NOUN: 1a. A paint containing a solvent and an oxidizing or evaporating binder, used to coat a surface with a hard, glossy, transparent film. ************************************************************************
of the hundreds of woodworkers I've known over the years not one would accept paint et al under the heading of varnish nor a clear coat as paint in a normal woodworking discourse. In other words, in the woodworking community, the dictionary definition is also BS written by someone who's only woodworking experience has been sharpening their #2 pencil.
Using the above definition with a bunch of woodworkers is nit picking just for the sake of an argument at best, at worst, well...........
-- MikeG Heirloom Woods www.heirloom-woods.net snipped-for-privacy@heirloom-woods.net
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says...

And BS is BS.
While the above is, by dictionary definition, technically true,
*********************************************************************** PRONUNCIATION: vrnsh KEY NOUN: 1a. A paint containing a solvent and an oxidizing or evaporating binder, used to coat a surface with a hard, glossy, transparent film. ************************************************************************
of the hundreds of woodworkers I've known over the years not one would accept paint et al under the heading of varnish nor a clear coat as paint in a normal woodworking discourse. In other words, in the woodworking community, the dictionary definition is also BS written by someone who's only woodworking experience has been sharpening their #2 pencil.
Using the above definition with a bunch of woodworkers is nit picking just for the sake of an argument at best, at worst, well...........
I think most wood workers are capable of understanding the difference.
Need the technical definition be changed to satisfy those that cannot learn the difference?
With the statement, "all polyurethane is not varnish", being wrong, a correction is not nit picking.
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snipped-for-privacy@swbell.net says...

No, the technical definition is inadequate and out dated and should be corrected and updated to keep up with an ever changing real world.
Like I said, nit picking or you aren't capable of understanding the difference.
Take your pick you are either one the other or..........
MikeG Heirloom Woods www.heirloom-woods.net snipped-for-privacy@heirloom-woods.net
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Well I think if you believe this you should have this corrected.

Oh I understand, you simply choose to not believe.
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Leon wrote:

Now let's see, I guess that Imron, Awlgrip, and Irathane are all varnishes. I guess that the 3M 8561 Transparent Film that we used to use to protect the heaters on the DHC-7 was a varnish.

I see. So the piece of lucite I have covering my desktop is varnish? After all it's used for protection of a surface and is transparent. Polyurethane refers to large family of plastics with varied properties and uses. While it is used for transparent coatings, that is only one minor use to which it is put. Take a look at <http://www.irproducts.com/ for a wide range of polurethane products most of which are not adhesives or surface coatings.
--
--John
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Ok, Now you are assuming that all paints are opaque.
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FWIW, "Varnish" is generic term. Look it up in a dictionary.
Paint, Polyurethane, Shellac, and other top coatings are Varnishes. They can be oil, alcohol, or water based.
varnish, homogeneous solution of gum or of natural or synthetic resins in oil (oil varnish) or in a volatile solvent (spirit varnish), which dries on exposure to air, forming a thin, hard, usually glossy film. It is used for the protection or decoration of surfaces and may be transparent, translucent, or tinted. For oil varnishes a hard gum or resin, often a fossilized plant exudation such as kauri or copal, is dissolved in oil (commonly linseed oil or tung oil) and is diluted with a volatile solvent such as turpentine. Spirit varnishes are commonly made of soft resins or gums, such as shellac, dammer, mastic, or sandarac, dissolved in a volatile solvent, e.g., alcohol, benzene, acetone, or turpentine. Enamel is varnish with added pigments. Lacquer may be a cellulose derivative dissolved in a volatile solvent, or it may be a natural varnish made in the East from the sap of trees. Among the varnishes named either for their constituents or for the proposed use are japanner's gold size, cabinet, carriage, bookbinder's, patent-leather, insulating, photographic, shellac, and copal picture varnish. Varnish has been known from antiquity; the Egyptians coated mummy cases with a pastelike form made of soft resins dissolved in oil and applied when warm. Another early use was for coating oil paintings. Stradivarius and other violinmakers used a slow-drying linseed oil varnish on their instruments.varnish, homogeneous solution of gum or of natural or synthetic resins in oil (oil varnish) or in a volatile solvent (spirit varnish), which dries on exposure to air, forming a thin, hard, usually glossy film. It is used for the protection or decoration of surfaces and may be transparent, translucent, or tinted. For oil varnishes a hard gum or resin, often a fossilized plant exudation such as kauri or copal, is dissolved in oil (commonly linseed oil or tung oil) and is diluted with a volatile solvent such as turpentine. Spirit varnishes are commonly made of soft resins or gums, such as shellac, dammer, mastic, or sandarac, dissolved in a volatile solvent, e.g., alcohol, benzene, acetone, or turpentine. Enamel is varnish with added pigments. Lacquer may be a cellulose derivative dissolved in a volatile solvent, or it may be a natural varnish made in the East from the sap of trees. Among the varnishes named either for their constituents or for the proposed use are japanner's gold size, cabinet, carriage, bookbinder's, patent-leather, insulating, photographic, shellac, and copal picture varnish. Varnish has been known from antiquity; the Egyptians coated mummy cases with a pastelike form made of soft resins dissolved in oil and applied when warm. Another early use was for coating oil paintings. Stradivarius and other violinmakers used a slow-drying linseed oil varnish on their instruments.

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On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 15:46:27 GMT, "Leon"
Why ? When did dictionaries become an authority on technical terms? Even if you ask the OWLs themselves they don't claim to be the creators of language, only it's documentors. When you get to technical or craft terminology, dictionaries produced by general lexicographers are often carefully accurate over their source citations, but vague or downright wrong over meanings.

Well that's the description of someone who's never tried it. Have you ever made copal dissolve in oil ?
--
Smert' spamionam

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wrote:

My original knowledge of this came from my brother in law. He checked his "Artist Encyclopedia" and learnd this definition. This large dictionary looking book deals mainly with making your own paints.
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Leon wrote:

I did. The Oxford. It excludes paint, and if one is being pedantic it excludes polyesters, epoxies, and some urethanes.

So how about if it's a liquid that cures solid without ever being dissolved in anything?

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Get yourself a copy of Bob Flexnor (sp) book "Understanding Wood Finishing." He cuts through a lot of the hype, black magic, and pure BS of wood finishing.
"Varnish" is synthetic resin in an oil-based carrier.
It was a substitute for Shellac, which is subject to the uncertainty of shipping from India--much less of a concern now than in earlier times.
Polyurethane is the most common type of resin used in the varnishes in Big Box stores.
Any film finish built up thick enough is going to look and feel like "plastic" because it essentially IS plastic. We get "plastic" look and feel from Poly partly because the brushed on product "Meets VOC Standards" by being (imo) too thick in the can and needing a bit of thinning--and partly--heck probably mostly-- 'cuz it's the first finish most of us attempt and we use it to cover up our mistakes . . :)
Disclaimer: I am NOT a coatings chemist, nor do I play one on Television. Moreover, I've never used a finish more complicated than brushed shellac.
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