TV Stand Project and Cabinetry

[Bill]

I started a new thread for this project.

I have been thinking more about a face frame and cabinet doors for my project.

In my newbeness, I have assumed that a face frame was just another piece of plywood with holes cut out (and I suspect that would work if it was going to be painted), but I am beyond that now. I just recalled that I could go browse all of Swingman's pictures again, but since I got this far I will ask my question:

I am gaining the impression that a good quality face frame is typically make out of pieces of genuine solid wood even when the rest of the cabinet carcase may be made from man-made materials. Is this the way that you would proceed? Admittedly, this makes me ponder whether wood expansion/contraction could weaken the glue joints holding the face frame to the carcase.

BTW, I tried out my new Milwaukee jigsaw in an unrelated house repair yesterday (cutting a few planks of Ash), and got very smoothe cuts--the best I've experienced from a jigsaw. However, my experience has been limited to the use of several of vintage Craftsman sabre saws, each of which had disuaded me from the use of such saws. I found the little LED light on the front to the Milwaukee saw very convenient too!

Bill

[Swingman]

\

More often than not, absolutely correct. There are many valid methods to skin that cat, and we all have our favorites.

Still have that Sketchup?

Here's one way to make a solid wood face frame (I use pocket hole joinery for the rails and stiles in all cases), and how the face frame and casework go together:

's a face frame only model that can be re-sized:

are many variations on this theme, as well as many advantages for doing it as modeled, as it is a method that has stood the test of time. BTW, these are dynamic models, which can be re-sized to make it easier to fill linear distances in a kitchen or built-in areas for both planning, bidding, and building.

Often when you are building furniture that is casework based, it is beneficial to use face frames on both sides of the casework ... I use this method frequently, and I know for a fact that Leon uses it to good advantage on those beautiful tall cabinets he builds.

FF's rails and stiles are generally 1 1/2" - 3" wide, so for most species that you would use to build face frames there will not be enough cross grain instability to cause that problem.

[Bill]

>> Here's a face frame only model that can be re-sized:

Mucho-Thanks! If I understand the diagram, you have grooves along the backs of each of the rails and stiles of the face frame. That is a marvelous way to increase the gluing surface, if it fits! Note to self: Make sure the grooves fit over all 4 of the outer faces of the carcase.

I assume that you use dominos where the rail and stiles meet (besides pocket holes)? Without tenons, I can see that one could trim the lengths for a perfect fit prior to assembly.

You've given me lots of good ideas to borrow from!

Bill

[dadiOH]

Yes, it is the norm.

Face frames are normally narrow, NP with expansion/contraction popping them loose from the case. One can always attach them mechanically too; heck, that is my norm...FF screwed to the case, no glue, screw holes plugged with face grain plugs cut from same wood as the FF.

[Swingman]

>>>>>>> Here's a face frame only model that can be re-sized:

>>>>> Mucho-Thanks!

No dominoes or tenons on the face frames as a rule. Not necessary when using pocket joinery to make face frames.

Since the face frame will be attached to the casework, pocket hole joinery supplies more than enough joint strength necessary for the face frame.

IOW, both components, face frame and casework, end up with more strength and rigidity than they possess individually.

Remember what we previously preached about "square" being the holy grail of cabinet making?

Want to understand how cabinets in factories and large scale cabinet shops are made consistently square, where BOTH efficiency and square are of paramount importance?

FACT: It's much, much easier to build a perfectly square "face frame", with fewer parts, than it is to build/assemble perfectly square, multiple part casework, and then attempt to add the face frame to the casework.

So, use the same methods that the big boy cabinet shops and method engineers in the factories use to insure their products garner the multitude of benefits and value from building square products:

Build your face frames first, complete with grooves and dadoes ... taking care to build it perfectly square (batch cutting FF parts, dadoes, etc).

Only then do you assemble the casework parts (end panels, floors and partitions) ... directly _on top of_ that perfectly square face frame ... and the grooves/rabbets/dadoes make it virtually impossible to go wrong.

Results: a perfectly square cabinet, with all the many benefits therefrom.

[-MIKE-]

This should be in a FAQ somewhere.

[Bill]

I agree; it's great stuff!

[Sonny]

Results: a perfectly square cabinet, with all the many benefits >> therefrom.

And do a final dry fit of all parts, before committing to glue-up?

Sonny

[Swingman]

therefrom. >> > > This should be in a FAQ somewhere. I agree; it's great stuff!

A quickie 'idiot check', to insure the shop dummy hasn't done something stupid, is always in order ... ;)

[Leon]

>>>>>>> Here's a face frame only model that can be re-sized:

>>>>> Mucho-Thanks!

Bill the cabinets that I have been making lately, the last 14 cabinets in the past 2 years actually have front and back face frames. I did not use screws on the face frames but did use Domino's for the front and or a combination of lap joint and domino on the back face frames. All face frames mate with the carcase via dadoes in the mating sides.

You mentioned that this all has to fit the outer faces of the carcase and that is very true. There is nothing wrong with using pocket hole screws except with my back face frames the screws would show from the front side. Additionally when you use pocket hole screws you are pretty much locked into the where every thing fits when it comes time to mate the carcase and the face frames. With Domino's you can use a wider mortise setting so that you have a little wiggle room. Basically I dry fit the carcase and also dry fit the face frame on top to insure it will all fit together. I then remove the face frame and glue it together, place it back on top of the of the dry fit carcase using waxed paper in between to keep them from sticking to each other. With slightly over sized mortices for the Domino's I get a little wiggle room, 1/8" or so. While this does not seem like a lot of wiggle it is often a great help especially when a single cabinet may have as many as 16 dadoes in the carcase and both face frames that all have to come together. Typically the wiggle room aids in assembly and disappears once all the pieces are in place and the clamps have every thing fitting as it should be while the glue sets. It is imperative that that your measurements and cuts are accurate and where they need to be.

[Bill]

>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>

Let me see if I understand what you are saying. If you were going to make two FFs, you would glue and fit them to a dry-fit carcase, and then glue (or pocket hole screw) the carcase and the FFs together the next day?

With slightly over

It occurred to me today that I either need pre-dimensioned wood, or need to hand or machine-joint my Cherry wood that I haven't got yet. I have collected quite a few hand planes.

[Leon]

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Close ;~) No screws at all. The carcase parts are fitted with dadoes also. I glue the front face frames together on the dry fit carcase, turn all that over and do the same with the back face frame. Then I pull the face frames off, front and back, glue the dado of the carcase sides, top, and bottom, and glue all of that to the front and back face frame dadoes at one time. I usually use 12~16 clamps to sandwich all of that together.

Yes you absolutely want stock that is precisely the size you think it is.

[Bill]

Somehow I came upon a site describing "partial inset doors" and acquainted myself with the terms: inset, lip and reveal (thanks Larry Jaques--that last term helped me get started). I learned inset and lip of 3/8" are pretty standard as is a 1" reveal (maybe that's more standard on kitchen cabinets, than tv-stands?)

I found I was able to view (through Google) dozens, if not hundreds or more, or various pictures of cabinet doors. At this point I don't see how I could settle for cabinet doors I didn't have to agonize over! I hope this helps someone spill their morning cofee! It makes me laugh, sort of.

It's all fun and games until noticing that one end of the table is 3/4 of an inch higher than the other end! : )

Bill

[Larry Jaques]

Jewelcome.

Bill OBSESSING? Whoda thunk it?

Helps with the runoff during a rainfall, right? What, you say it doesn't rain in your living room? Oh. That could be a problem. Measure the legs, cut to fit, sand to dewobble. If you have a large assembly table, you can stick an 80grit PSA pad down, set the table on the assy table, and rub the long leg over it a few times, then move over 'til the legs are all on the table. Repeat until wobble goes away.

-- ...in order that a man may be happy, it is necessary that he should not only be capable of his work, but a good judge of his work. -- John Ruskin

[Swingman]

Be careful now ...these days about the only thing in the kitchen cabinet business that screams "CHEAP" louder than lipped (partial inset) cabinet doors is attaching a fake stile to one lipped door in a two door cabinet. :)

[Bill]

It was just a lesson I picked up, I'm not married to it.

An "inset" door adds more to the aura of craftsmanship, ay?

I agree that a "fake stile" would be off the charts cheap! it took me a few seconds to even imagine one.

After I build a carcase, I can assess whether it will be able to support inset doors or not--or maybe just one of each! : )

[Bill]

Oops, I should have said a carcase and a *face frame*!

--or maybe just one of each! : )

>

[Swingman]

Listen up!

Equally important with batch cutting, and the overriding pursuit of square, in building cabinetry and furniture:

Design parameters, and certainly the final dimensions of many components (doors and drawers), more often than not hinge (no pun intended) upon the hardware being used!

Rule: Decide upon the hardware you are going to use for the entire project ...to wit: hinges and hardware for the doors; drawer slides and hardware for the drawers.

Rule: Then purchase those hinges, drawer slides and all hardware _BEFORE_ you begin the project; or, at a very minimum, satisfy yourself

110% that said hardware, or alternate hardware that requires the exact same dimensions you built to, will be available upon completion.

There are NO exceptions to the two above rules ... none.

Or, more simply put: Decide upon your hardware before you design and build.

[dadiOH]

I can't say I agree with you (or Swingman) on this. The stile isn't fake except that it isn't part of the face frame. What it does is give you complete access to a large, double door cabinet.

Logically, large things are stored in large cabinets and if there were a center stile on the face frame the size of storable items would be cut way down.

[Bill]

I think the "Kid-in-a-candyshop" analogy fits pretty well. Lots of oohing and ahhing! : )

My mom used to hand us kids the Sears catalog, and tell us to pick something out. Like the Red Rider BB-Gun, with the compass in the stock.