TS-Aligner Fall 2006 Promotional Offer!

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ummm..... previously you said:
"Ed's device also requires the use of goofy triangles and charts to determine an angle. Yes Ed, I have bought one of your products."
So which product did you buy, since it obviously wasn't the TS-Aligner?
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snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:

I have a great sense of humor. However, your "joke" doesn't seem too funny to me. Perhaps that's because the sentence "They must be making more money off that hunk of sheet metal than I thought they were." is not funny. In fact, it's rather disparaging. Many of your comments about me and my products are rather disparaging and completely untrue. I do take it rather personally because my integrity and honor are at stake. I don't sell overpriced, flimsey hunks of sheet metal. I sell accurately machined measurement instruments. And, your disparaging remarks can adversely affect my ability to put food on the table and keep the roof over my head. So, please forgive me for not laughing at your "joke". I'm not holding these statements against you, and I'm not holding your attempt to call them a joke against you. But, you should stop and think about how they might affect you if they were made in a public forum about you, your company and its products.

Thanks for clarifying. It's not exactly a retraction all of the disparaging comments but it's a step in the right direction.

Yes, one of the things that I noticed at the Pinpoint web site is that there are no prices. There's not even a mention of prices. You know that feeling you get when you go to a restaurant that has no prices on the menu? If you have to ask then you can't afford it!
I could see that the Pinpoint products are designed for machinery alignment and calibration. And, I know that their solutions can be adapted to woodworking machines. But, they don't offer any ready made solutions which "achieve the same thing" that the Jr. does. It would seem that they focus on industrial solutions - mostly in the metalworking industry.
I understand optical metrology. Believe me, I get it. That's why I have so much trouble with what you are saying. If I didn't understand the topic then I might just accept your vague descriptions and topical diversions. You have said that your laser is a distance measurement device. Fine. Now, how do you fixture that device so that you can measure blade or fence alignment in relation to the miter gauge slot? How do you fixture the laser so that you can measure blade tilt or miter gauge angles? How do you fixture the laser so that you can measure jointer knife alignment. These are not trivial questions so they require something other than trivial answers. You can't just point to some laser alignment tools and accessories on a web site and declare that they work just great on woodworking machines.

The point is this: if your company created this solution for a customer, would it still cost less than a Jr.? If you don't count your time or any of the resources of your company in the cost, then it is "fiddling aroudn in the shop" and the comparison is not valid. If all I did was count the cost of materials, then I could claim that the Jr. cost me a lot less than your solution.

And, nobody in the group is coming forward to claim that they sent the alleged email. Hmmmm.....
In your original message you characterized me as "bold" profiteer trying to get group members to send me "$1K+". In your second message you accused me of "taking advantage of this forum to make a buck" and began to disparage my products by saying "I achieve the same thing at a much lower cost anyway." I didn't respond to this "aggresive language" with equally disparaging remarks, I just asked you to back up your claims. And, I think I did it in a very polite manner.
In your third message you issued the veiled threats where you listed my shop address and promised to pay me a visit. In response to questioning your solution, and suggesting that it was "bovine fecal matter" you accused me of being a "hostile" "liar" who responded with "insults". You characterized my product as requiring "...the use of goofy triangles and charts to determine an angle." and suffering from "physical deviations" with "bearings, rails, steel rods or a slab of aluminum that will deviate in changing conditions". I consider this to be pretty "aggressive language".
Now, while the term "bovine fecal matter" isn't exactly complimentary, it is not a disparaging statement about you personally, it's a comment about what you said, . It's the most polite way I can think of to say that I don't believe your statements. And I still feel that way for a number of reasons. First, you continue to evade the original questions with attempts to turn around the argument. Again, it's not about what your device can do that mine can't. It's about your claim to "...achieve the same thing at a much lower cost". Second, you have preferred to issue veiled threats rather than calmly discuss the original questions. Third, you have preferred to villify others (myself and Doug) than to calmly discuss the original questions.

Fourth, I have to keep reminding you that you haven't answered the original questions. There's always time for you to post a reply, and such replies have proven to be quite long and involved, but none have answered the original questions.
I don't care about your opinion of my annual promotional offers to this group. Obviously you haven't been watching this group very long because I do it every year. Go search Google Groups if you don't believe me. I do it out of gratitude for all the help that group members have given to me during the year. And, I really don't make any money doing it. I'm not going to get bent out of shape over your protests, I'll let the others do that. I want to discuss the technical aspects of your device vs. mine. Let's forget the threats and name calling and accusations and other evasions of the original questions and calmly discuss the solution that you claim can "...achieve the same thing at a much lower cost."
Thanks, Ed Bennett snipped-for-privacy@ts-aligner.com http://www.ts-aligner.com
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Liar. I never sent you any email, yet you posted my address.

Liar. My true email address is in the sig line of my posts, and I have received no email from you.

Liar.
*You* are the one lying here. And if you call me again, I'll file a written complaint of harassment with the telco -- and once they obtain proof, I will file charges.

I'm not making *any* money from Ed's device (which you clearly know absolutely nothing about, as there isn't any sheet metal anywhere in it). *Ed* made money off of *me* (which he deserves -- it's a fine product). I bought one of Ed's products once. That is the *only* connection between us. Ed makes a fine product, he stands behind it, and he is unfailingly courteous, gentlemanly, and professional. I'm a fully satisfied customer, and I have no hesitation about saying so -- and I have never received anything from Ed in return except "Thank you" (nor do I expect to).

That's odd -- somebody who lives in your neck of the woods *did*, and said he was "coming over" -- shortly after I invited you to do so. Somebody with the phone number 205-257-4369. That's not you, huh?

Given all the other lies you've told in this post, please pardon me if I'm a bit skeptical.

Why the hell would I want to? I can obtain perfectly good alignments using the TS-Aligner in accordance with the instructions.

Nope. Don't need to. I buy Forrest blades. They take care of that for me. Haven't had a problem yet.

Why the hell would I want to do that? After I align my saw, I want to start cutting wood, not play with my PC. I don't *care* about graphing anything, I just want to get my saw set up so I can make furniture.

Apparently it has escaped your notice that it requires only two points to establish a line, not three. Measuring the distance from the miter slot to the blade at the front and the back of the blade is all that's necessary to determine whether the two are parallel.

The charts are provided as a convenience for those who aren't able to perform trigonometric calculations on their own.

I won't believe that until Ed confirms it -- if you actually had the TS-Aligner (or if you had even looked at Ed's website) you'd know that it's not made of "sheet metal".

I can hardly wait.

And you'll be able to sell this at a price competitive with Ed's products.
Go for it.
I'm not going to hold my breath.

Liar. I never declared myself to be an expert.

Liar. I never said that.
[snip]

What is *your* purpose in making this post that is just chock-FULL of lies, and then accusing *me* of lying? I haven't made one single statement of fact in this thread that isn't true, and all of my statements of opinion have been labelled as such. *You*, on the other hand, have made _at_least_ eight clearly demonstrable lies in this post up to this point; no telling yet how many follow.

The only lies here are yours.
Nine.

I'm not trying to sell product. I'm a *customer* of the Edward J. Bennett company. That's all.
Ten.

You didn't start with a "friendly comment", you started with a complaint about one of the most respected and respectable members of this group.
Eleven.
And neither Ed -- twelve -- nor I -- thirteen -- have been "aggressive" toward you. Until now.

And I'd say that you've really got your panties in a wad.

Oh, believe me, it's quite obvious there are other people more knowledgeable in this subject than you. Ed is one of them.

I certainly accept that there are other people more knowledgeable than I. Ed is one of them. Whether you are or not may be open to question.

I don't have your address. And you misspelled "Christmas".
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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Doug Miller wrote:

Yep. The proper spelling is S a t u r n a l i a :-).
--
It's turtles, all the way down

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--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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(http://www.xilinx.com/products/silicon_solutions/fpgas/spartan_series/spartan3_fpgas/index.htm )
Great! How much is the retail, out the door price for those of us that want one of your TS-Laser-Aligners??
I could scrounge up some parts and electronics and cobble something together on the cheap too, but cost and retail are two very different things. Raw cost on a TS-Alingner can not be much over a 12 pack, plus the indicator, but add the engineering, the labor to machine, and some reasonable profit and you end up with $150-$200. Greg
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This is one of the lamest things I have ever seen on usenet...
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It gets lamer. He actually phoned me this morning -- see my post titled "Strange phone call this morning".
--
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Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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Locutus wrote:

I'm sure 3272 W 42nd. Street, NY, is a single family home. He could wait in the driveway! <G>
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--
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Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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Doug Miller wrote:

Do you watch TV?
That area is in Manhattan, near Times Square. <G>
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Rarely.
Oh.
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Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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: I wouldn't have bothered to respond to this thread if I was worried : about the reponses I got. I really did expect it and I really don't : care what those who responded think. I'm more entertained by it than : anything.
Ah, a troll.
: I never said I could achive the same thing that ed does with a stick. : I would have gladly enlighted some of you before but understanding the : true profiteer nature that many of you have, I don't see a purpose in : giving you something else to sell. I can tell you that I get much : better accuracy with a system I put together with a cheap laser, prisms : that I swap in/out and an FPGA to calculate distance. Dial indicators : are mechanical and have flex in them. The only shortcoming of my : approach is atmospheric conditions which only come into play under : extreme circumstances.
    Your name wouldn't be Steve Strickland, would it now? Where do you put the shag carpet in?
    -- Andy Barss
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Andrew Barss wrote:
snip

Does sound kind of familar. And as I recall, the guy who did the testing of the contestants' "precision samples" used - wait for it - dial gauges, albeit very expensive dial gauges.
Now about that laser device - if it's about $90 USD in parts and it takes some time to order or go pick up the parts and it takes some sticking the parts together and I'm guessing it'd need some User Instructions which have to be written and illustrated the printed and bound (ok stapled together) and, unless it has a portable memory card so you can get the data to a computer so you can use it, or does it plug into a lap top that you need to take to the shop in order to check a set up and fix if necessary . . .
I have enough trouble keeping my glasses clean in the shop. Cleaning mirrors without screwing up their alignment?
I'm a tool phreak. If I could get one of these laser set up devices, with a 30 day money back guarantee, and it was less than $175 I want one! Hell I just blew close to $400 on the JoolTool just to keep my turning gouges nice and sharp quickly and easily. Put me down for a unit - assuming there's a 30 day money back guarantee.
Interesting links.
charlie b who actually uses his real e-mail address when he posts here - or anywhere else. No drop out e-mail addresses for me.
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I believe that would have been me. Actually, I used a micrometer, accurate to a ten-thousandth, which I borrowed from my father-in-law (a retired tool and die maker)
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Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:

Wow, a real live netkOOk. Come over anytime, you'll get a real good reception. Here's a link to wish ya well: http://www.amishrakefight.org/gfy /
--
Dave
www.davebbq.com
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Incra, Delta etc. doesn't post here. Ed does. As does Steve Knight, Robin Lee, etc.
The issues, as I see it, are 1) Is it excessive?
Well, it's been a year since the last special for TS Aligner Jr. I bought one last year. Recommended if your budget can afford it. I don't think 1 or 2 posts a year are excessive.
2) Is he responsive to consumers?
If a vendor treats this newsgroup as "write only memory" and ignores all complaints, then they deserve what happens to them.
3) Is it purposely hard to filter?
Some trolls always change their name, subject, etc. and make it hard to filter their announcements. Ed does not. If you don't want to read about the TS Aligner - don't.

So? I see more messages about people bitching than I see about the original message. If some club wants to do a bulk order - fine. It might work. It might not. You should be able to ignore one post a year, and you should know how to use kill files if you don't want to read anything by Ed, or anything about his promotions.
The other forums I visit have worse problems than vendors who participate - like politics.
I too have seen forums degrade - and agree that speaking up when you see a problem is the right thing to do.
But this is the FIRST time Ed made an offer for a bulk purchase. I don't think Ed is doing the wrong thing here.
And I'd guess that the other vendors you had a problem with were much less responsive than Ed is. I think you need to cut him some slack.
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Bruce Barnett wrote:

Ditto that.
Many of the vendors who post here are quick to add useful woodworking information that often has little to do with the particular product they sell.
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are enthusiastic users of his alignment tools. Without Ed's posts to the group, I would never have known that they exist. Ed's marketing is never "hard-sell". His posts consist mostly of "here it is, it works, but don't just take my word for it, ask around." Very low key, very professional -- and very much appreciated, too.
You're not (quite) the only one here to feel the way you do -- but you are in a very small minority, and it seems to me that the group would suffer much more from Ed's departure than from yours.
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Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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snipped-for-privacy@milmac.com (Doug Miller) writes:

Yeah! Well said. Ed's not a sales guy in a suit pushing crap. It's like he's a regular guy who found a need for a product, made the product, and started up a small business around this quality product.
This is exactly what we need more of.
Compare this to
Hello! I run a factory in China, and we will mass product anything you want. Just send us enough money and we can copy anything. Minimum order is $100,000.
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