TS-Aligner Fall 2006 Promotional Offer!

[Locutus]

This is one of the lamest things I have ever seen on usenet...

[Doug Miller]

It gets lamer. He actually phoned me this morning -- see my post titled "Strange phone call this morning".

[B A R R Y]

I'm sure 3272 W 42nd. Street, NY, is a single family home. He could wait in the driveway!

[Doug Miller]

?? I don't live in NY.

[B A R R Y]

Do you watch TV?

That area is in Manhattan, near Times Square.

[Doug Miller]

Rarely.

Oh.

[Bruce Barnett]

I count four postings - over a period of 6 years.

3 in the wreck.

I could even guess his name, but will just say his initials are AR.

But his e-mail is [e-mail] and X-Trace: tornado.tampabay.rr.com

So notmenotnow's from Florida - I'd guess.

[todd1814]

The posting of addresses is in reply to e-mails I've received. I didn't want other people to know their exact addresses so I only posted enough for them to know that I can also google up some data. I tried replying with e-mail but that keeps bouncing back.

Obviously someone had the desire to look me up and threaten me via e-mail. Why are Ed and Doug so hostile over me suggesting that they keep marketing off the newsgroup? So hostile that they'll lie about me calling them? They must be making more money off that hunk of sheet metal than I thought they were.

For the record, I haven't called anyone. This is a discussion forum, not a wrestling ring. You can also rest assured that having a public disagreement with me is an automatic exclusion from being harmed. If that was my intent that I wouldn't have replied at all. Speaking of which, I'm not the one who responded with insults in the first place. I just pointed out that I would rather not see advertising here.

I own a small company that improves manufacturing processes through the use of lasers. We engineer the systems and write embedded front-ends to process data for various pre-made laser systems. One of my favorite vendors is just down the road.

out their product page at:

you checked out the website you'll see that this company makes products that measure DISTANCE using lasers. They also measure ANGLES and that data is used to CALIBRATE machinery. It's not rocket science. Dial indicators aren't used as much for calibration anymore. Back when Ed and Doug were working for Mr. Slate in the quarry, dial indicators were cool. Today people have the option of precision using lasers. The client I'm working with today uses a system we developed to ensure the circumference of their cigarettes is consistent. That's 8000 cigarettes per minute per machine. Each cigarette is measured 20 times from different angles. Because smoking is an obsessive behavior, it's important that a smoker always have the exact same experience when they light up. That includes, length, circumference, weight, color, odor, etc. Lasers are used to help achieve that.

Lasers are prone to atmospheric interruption, particularly in a manufacturing environment. Tobacco dust of .2 microns can throw measurements out of whack. So can adverse changes in humidity. Most of the time we engineer a known positive airlow into the system to keep dust out of the stream. Be sure to read this little blurb on that:

calibration tool I put together for my shop uses a laser that's specifically made for measurements. The cost is $70. I use a Xilinx Spartan 3 FPGA control the laser, check sensors, run the UI and calcluate the trig. I think I paid $6 for it. I did use a Motorola 68000 CPU core, implemented in verilog and programmed into the FPGA. This was due to cost/speed/familiarity. I also used a compact flash slot and System Ace interface chip to program the FPGA on powerup. The entire solution is around $90. I'm not the first person to do this by any means but wanted to try rolling my own.

This guy gives a simple explanation of how distance is measured with lasers but I do I'm doing it a little differently. I use the latency instead.

what can my setup do that Ed's doesn't? First, you can take measurements when a machine is running. Want to detect blade wobble? How about blade flatness or tooth pitch consistency? Turn on the saw, select the test and hit a button. When the memory fills up the test is over. Download the data to your PC and graph. Ed's device is also limited to 2 measurement points. If you want to miter slot alignment, my device will measure from A through C, not just A and C. A and C refer to end points. B is the middle. Ed's device also requires the use of goofy triangles and charts to determine an angle. Yes Ed, I have bought one of your products.

In the near future you'll likely see a similar device being marketed. I don't own the patents needed to make something like this happen but I can put one together. The big plus in laser calibration is that most of the physical deviations of a device like Ed's are gone. You don't have bearings, rails, steel rods or a slab of aluminum that will deviate in changing conditions.

Well, there you have the answers to many things that Ed and Doug stated are false. They declared themselves the experts. Doug stated that atmospheric conditions wouldn't affect a laser. Ed stated that measuring angles with a laser is not possible. Both said it would be too expensive. In fact, Ed said that I couldn't make the same thing cheaper. Ed must not know that I have a mill and some T11 sitting in the shop. I'm pretty confident that I could copy his design in a day or perhaps two. But why bother when I have one that I don't use anymore?

What was the purpose in Doug and Ed stating something that's not true? Were these lies or deliberate attempts to mislead the group? Are they just trying to sell more product? Why is it that Ed and Doug decided to be aggressive towards me when I started with a friendly comment? I'd say they feel that their superiority as the all-knowing guru's of this newsgroup is threatened. There's nothing wrong with other people being more knowledgable in a subject than I am. That's just the way it is. Ed and Doug should learn to accept that too.

BTW: Whichever one of you has my address is welcome to send me an x-mas card.

[Andrew Barss]

: Lasers are prone to atmospheric interruption, particularly in a : manufacturing environment. Tobacco dust of .2 microns can throw : measurements out of whack.

Well, then thank goodness no dust or anything would occur in a woodworking shop to interfere with on of your spiffy laser alignbment systems for a tablesaw.

Gonna git me one real soon now!

-- Andy Barss, happy with his TS Aligner Jr.

[Andrew Barss]

[e-mail] wrote: : I wouldn't have bothered to respond to this thread if I was worried : about the reponses I got. I really did expect it and I really don't : care what those who responded think. I'm more entertained by it than : anything.

Ah, a troll.

: I never said I could achive the same thing that ed does with a stick. : I would have gladly enlighted some of you before but understanding the : true profiteer nature that many of you have, I don't see a purpose in : giving you something else to sell. I can tell you that I get much : better accuracy with a system I put together with a cheap laser, prisms : that I swap in/out and an FPGA to calculate distance. Dial indicators : are mechanical and have flex in them. The only shortcoming of my : approach is atmospheric conditions which only come into play under : extreme circumstances.

Your name wouldn't be Steve Strickland, would it now? Where do you put the shag carpet in?

-- Andy Barss

[ejb]

It would appear that there's some confusion. I never sent you any email. My email server does not have any record of any email messages from you.

I never said anything to you about your protesting my message.

I never said that you called me. I said that I received a call from the same number that Doug did and that I know exactly who it is. It appears that you accept guilt before being accused.

Actually, Doug makes no money from the sale of my products. And I make next to no money! Honestly, every month is a major struggle. I have to keep a lot of irons in the fire to make ends meet.

And, I don't make anything out of sheet metal. Everything I sell is machined from aluminum extrusions, or ground rod and flat stock (steel).

Great, I never said that you did. And, that address and phone number isn't yours, right?

Glad to hear it. So, the veiled threats were....just for effect?

Fine. So you retract the veiled threats, right?

much less" than a TS-Aligner Jr. I would think that the work required to adapt them to the alignment of woodworking machinery would far exceed the cost of a Jr. Certainly the cost of even the least expensive of these units must be more than $200, right? Someone who owns a company that specializes in such adaptations should probably know this.

I did check out the web site. I didn't see anything that could be used to set blade tilt or miter gauge angles. Nothing to set jointer knives. Nothing at all adapted for the alignment of any woodworking machinery. I don't doubt that someone skilled in optical metrology can't use this equipment to accomplish some of these tasks. But, this isn't "the same thing" and it doesn't "cost much less".

Do you really believe this? This is an exaggeration for effect, right? Hyperbole, right? I would have to say that dial indicators (and their digital cousins) are still selling pretty well - probably better than any other time in history. Perhaps you could cite a major industrial supplier who has replaced their offering of dial indicators with laser measurement systems. I don't see any laser measurement systems in MSC, Grainger, or McMaster. But they do have a boatload of dial indicators.

Sounds like a good application. Much better than blade tilt, miter gauge angles, jointer knife alignment.

Can't afford my own setup but could use one if you are giving it away!

Where can a person buy such a laser for $70?

to control the laser, check sensors, run the UI and calcluate the trig.

But, it doesn't do "the same thing" does it.

Distance is fine but it's still not adapted for aligning and adjusting woodworking machinery.

It's not a question of what your device can do that mine cannot. It's a question of your device being able to do everything that mine does.

Really? Earlier in the thread you said: "...I won't buy Ed's product based solely on the fact that he's taking advantage of this forum to make a buck." Now you say that you already have bought one of my products. I must say that it's a bit confusing.

Yes, but there's no need to be worried about any of these sources of error when aligning woodworking machinery. And, you can't say that there aren't some significant issues involved in laser measurement devices (air turbulence, temperature variation, vibration, dust, alignment, stability, etc.). If I'm certifying a large machining center or boring mill, then the laser system is great. But, I really don't think it has much application in the woodshop.

I don't think so.

I didn't do it before, but I'll do it now: I am an expert! Sorry, couldn't resist. I do have a whole bunch of years experience doing this.

I have the upmost respect for Doug but I can't speak for what he said.

No, that's not exactly what I said. In fact, that's not even remotely close to what I said. I said: "You are not going to use such a setup to align table saws, set jointer knives or tram drill press tables. It won't measure blade tilt or miter gauge angles." So, was I wrong? Are you using your laser to do all these things? We know what you claim above (about being able to measure the blade wobble while the machine is running) but what about practical things? Do you have the fixturing necessary to do a blade alginment? How about blade tilt or miter gauge angles? Can you do these sort of tasks in a practical, timely manner in a working woodshop environment? Or, is this just a bunch of theory and goofing around in your garage?

That's not quite what I said. I asked you to explain your comments. Specifically, I said: "Do you really have an innovative solution?. Can you really "achieve the same thing" as a TS-Aligner Jr. "at a much lower cost"?" You replied with a vague description of your laser setup. So, I'm willing to be really liberal in my definition of "much lower cost". If I give you $171.90 (one cent less than a TS-Aligner Jr.) will you send me a complete laser setup that will "achieve the same thing" that the TS-Aligner Jr. does? Be careful how you answer. If you say "yes", then I might just call your bluff. And, I bet that there might just be a few others in the group who would be interested. If you say "no" then you are admitting that I was right.

Well, we're not talking about my design, we're talking about yours. But, I'm sure that if you don't count your time, cost of materials, cost of equipment, and other various costs of doing business, then you probably could copy a Jr. for less than my selling price. Big deal, I do it all the time! That's how I make my living! If I couldn't make it for less than the selling price I would have gone out of business a long time ago.

The point is that you haven't done this yet. In your original statement you said: "I achieve the same thing at a much lower cost". You did not say "I could achieve the same thing at a much lower cost". It's not a matter of what you can possibly do at some time in the future, it's about what you are doing right now.

I wouldn't know. I didn't state anything that wasn't true. Did you Doug?

Neither.

I'm trying to discern the truth of your claim. I don't think that Doug is selling anything.

I'm not being aggressive toward you. I'm just trying to get you to stand by your own claim.

I think you are getting a bit carried away here. Hyperbole again, right?

I wouldn't have your address unless it was you that called. Don't you remember? You were denying that up above. Are you now saying that it was you that called? Is it your address that I have? I'm confused!

Ed Bennett [e-mail]

you might have noticed that I sign my messages. I do this because I believe in and stand behind what I say. I am not the sort to hide behind some sort of anonymous moniker. You found my address (and a map to my shop) because I put it up on my web site.

[ejb]

Below you say that you own one. But here you call it a "hunk of sheet metal". Anybody who owns a TS-Aligner Jr. would know that it's not made from sheet metal. So, once again I'm confused. Both statements can't be true. I wouldn't mind an explanation - especially since this comment is not exactly complimentary.

Thanks, Ed Bennett [e-mail]

[charlie b]

snip

Does sound kind of familar. And as I recall, the guy who did the testing of the contestants' "precision samples" used - wait for it - dial gauges, albeit very expensive dial gauges.

Now about that laser device - if it's about $90 USD in parts and it takes some time to order or go pick up the parts and it takes some sticking the parts together and I'm guessing it'd need some User Instructions which have to be written and illustrated the printed and bound (ok stapled together) and, unless it has a portable memory card so you can get the data to a computer so you can use it, or does it plug into a lap top that you need to take to the shop in order to check a set up and fix if necessary . . .

I have enough trouble keeping my glasses clean in the shop. Cleaning mirrors without screwing up their alignment?

I'm a tool phreak. If I could get one of these laser set up devices, with a 30 day money back guarantee, and it was less than $175 I want one! Hell I just blew close to $400 on the JoolTool just to keep my turning gouges nice and sharp quickly and easily. Put me down for a unit - assuming there's a 30 day money back guarantee.

Interesting links.

charlie b who actually uses his real e-mail address when he posts here - or anywhere else. No drop out e-mail addresses for me.

[fredfighter]

I remember when people here used to take you to task for refering to yourself as something like "the inventor of the table saw aligner" in your .sig.

Here's a blast from the past:

then you wouldn't have even considered posting an ad in this newsgroup. Now some of the most vocal newbies here, like Mr Miller and Mr Michaels are defending you. How the times have changed.

Anyhow, regarding SPAM:

Usenet spam:

?lnk=st&q=spam+monty+python&rnum=4&hl=en#095892df36364c64As to whether or not your ad was appropriate to this newsgroup, well, discussion of what is or is not on topic for rec.woodworking is off-topic for rec.woodworking, isn't it?

[Dave Bugg]

Wow, a real live netkOOk. Come over anytime, you'll get a real good reception. Here's a link to wish ya well:

[Doug Miller]

okayyyyyyy.... but 'notmenotnow' isn't the one who's been misbehaving...

[Doug Miller]

Liar. I never sent you any email, yet you posted my address.

Liar. My true email address is in the sig line of my posts, and I have received no email from you.

*You* are the one lying here. And if you call me again, I'll file a written complaint of harassment with the telco -- and once they obtain proof, I will file charges.

I'm not making *any* money from Ed's device (which you clearly know absolutely nothing about, as there isn't any sheet metal anywhere in it). *Ed* made money off of *me* (which he deserves -- it's a fine product). I bought one of Ed's products once. That is the *only* connection between us. Ed makes a fine product, he stands behind it, and he is unfailingly courteous, gentlemanly, and professional. I'm a fully satisfied customer, and I have no hesitation about saying so -- and I have never received anything from Ed in return except "Thank you" (nor do I expect to).

That's odd -- somebody who lives in your neck of the woods *did*, and said he was "coming over" -- shortly after I invited you to do so. Somebody with the phone number 205-257-4369. That's not you, huh?

Given all the other lies you've told in this post, please pardon me if I'm a bit skeptical.

[snip much irrelevantia]

Why the hell would I want to? I can obtain perfectly good alignments using the TS-Aligner in accordance with the instructions.

Nope. Don't need to. I buy Forrest blades. They take care of that for me. Haven't had a problem yet.

Why the hell would I want to do that? After I align my saw, I want to start cutting wood, not play with my PC. I don't *care* about graphing anything, I just want to get my saw set up so I can make furniture.

Apparently it has escaped your notice that it requires only two points to establish a line, not three. Measuring the distance from the miter slot to the blade at the front and the back of the blade is all that's necessary to determine whether the two are parallel.

The charts are provided as a convenience for those who aren't able to perform trigonometric calculations on their own.

I won't believe that until Ed confirms it -- if you actually had the TS-Aligner (or if you had even looked at Ed's website) you'd know that it's not made of "sheet metal".

And you'll be able to sell this at a price competitive with Ed's products.

Go for it.

I'm not going to hold my breath.

Liar. I never declared myself to be an expert.

Liar. I never said that.

[snip]

What is *your* purpose in making this post that is just chock-FULL of lies, and then accusing *me* of lying? I haven't made one single statement of fact in this thread that isn't true, and all of my statements of opinion have been labelled as such. *You*, on the other hand, have made _at_least_ eight clearly demonstrable lies in this post up to this point; no telling yet how many follow.

The only lies here are yours.

Nine.

I'm not trying to sell product. I'm a *customer* of the Edward J. Bennett company. That's all.

Ten.

You didn't start with a "friendly comment", you started with a complaint about one of the most respected and respectable members of this group.

Eleven.

And neither Ed -- twelve -- nor I -- thirteen -- have been "aggressive" toward you. Until now.

And I'd say that you've really got your panties in a wad.

Oh, believe me, it's quite obvious there are other people more knowledgeable in this subject than you. Ed is one of them.

I certainly accept that there are other people more knowledgeable than I. Ed is one of them. Whether you are or not may be open to question.

I don't have your address. And you misspelled "Christmas".

[Doug Miller]

I believe that would have been me. Actually, I used a micrometer, accurate to a ten-thousandth, which I borrowed from my father-in-law (a retired tool and die maker)

[Doug Miller]

Ummmm.... I'm not exactly a newbie, Fred: my first post to the wreck was more than ten years ago.

[todd1814]

Yes Ed, it's not made of sheet metal. That was a joke. Sense of humor. Got one? I do have one of your aligners but I didn't buy it. It's one of the many tools that's found its way from my fathers shop to mine. I got some good use out of it while making a homebrew CNC machine (that's still not finished). Yes it's very sturdy and very heavy and I'd probably use it a whole lot more if I didn't have access to the laser toys I work with.

I think you didn't quite get what pinlaser products are designed to accomplish. They're specifically made for calibrating machinery. That includes lathes, joiners, saws, mills, etc. The best part is that you can can troubleshoot issues that only crop up when the equipment is running. Yes, the solutions I install with their products are very expensive. I wouldn't use them in my shop because I can't afford that. If you do a google search, most laser calibration tools include the hardware and software to control the laser and detection units. I put mine together from just a laser. The logic is what costs you. I could have gone with a cheaper laser but I got stuck with an extra from a previous job. I didn't just "fiddle around in the shop" as you suggested. Not entirely. I do this for a living but if you count precision milling, programming gate arrays and writing controller code "fiddling" then I suppose you could say your correct.

As for your other question, no it's not my phone number so that doesn't bother me. The one sent in the email is obviously correct so yes, it's a bit disturbing that someone has nothing better to do. I never made a veiled threat to anyone. I don't live south of the mason dixon anymore. I never said Ed wasn't knowledgable at calibration - only that he's not an expert at everything - nobody is. My OP just said that I'd prefer not to see advertising here. I'm surprised how that comment led to all the aggressive language. I'm not what I'd consider to be a newbie to the rec. I've just done a lot of lurking over the past few years. Mostly because I've seen threads like this in the past.

I have to get back out to a client now. I don't get to sit at home and post messages all day like some of you.