THe price of wood

Page 2 of 4  
Ron Short writes:

Checked his poplar prices for the listed 4/4 2000 BF, at $770 per 1000 BF, which works out to 72 cents a BF. Reasonable, but it ain't nowhere near what your calculator gave you. And my check of the 8/4 gave $1.26 a BF.
One of us needs a new calculator.
Are you forgetting that when you're buying 18,000 BF at $1260 per M you need to multiply that M by 18?
Charlie Self "Giving every man a vote has no more made men wise and free than Christianity has made them good." H. L. Mencken
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OK, I was wondering how they could sell it so cheap. What does the "M" stand for?

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Ron Short asks:

1,000.
Charlie Self "Giving every man a vote has no more made men wise and free than Christianity has made them good." H. L. Mencken
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Mille - Latin for a thousand. Also Frog, if memory serves.

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Charlie Self wrote:

Oh! You mean "k"! ;)
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spake the words:

No, K is 1024, exactly. No mas, no menos, seor.
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Larry Jaques wrote:

Yeah, yeah, tell it to the company that manufactured my hard drive...
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spake the words:

Your drives are so old they're measured in K, are they'? =:0
That's the difference of "megs less overhead", sir. Net vs. gross, KWIM,V? Kinda like Searz horsepower vs. reality.
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Larry Jaques wrote:

There's actually a real answer to this problem. I think they invented kibibytes and mebibytes or some silly froof like that. I forget which is which, but one of them is the proper powers of two version, and the other is the lazy HD manufacturer's multiples of 1000 version.
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first off it's kilobytes, as in kilograms, the diff is kilograms are 1000 grams, where as kilobytes are 1024 bytes, remembering back to collage it has to do with base 2 math, as far as your hard drive, there are a number of reasons why your not seeing the full 60GB, fist hard drives are brocken down into sectors, and each sector holds X amount of data, and sector size changes from drive to drive. Your going to be short the first sector of the drive this is where the MBR(master boot record) is located and depending on how big your sectors are this can eat a little bit, a 60GB drive with 1200 sectors is going to be short 50M, also depends on how it was formated, was it a stock drive in the computer, HP Pavilions a while ago had a 40GB drive but only formated 25GB for the user, and then used the rest as a Back-up space, this is also common for lap tops and some of the newer toaster systems, Compaq EVO's for example, also if it's not an OEM drive, and you just put it in the system using there formating, it may not have been formated to the right size, I've seen some maxtors like that. and last, they may be rounding a little bit, there a few sectors short so they just round up.
Silvan wrote:

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Richard Clements wrote:

Not the least of which is that hard drive manufacturers have been using the standard that "megabyte = 1000 bytes; gigabyte = 1000 megabytes (of 1000 bytes)" ever since about the time when the first IDE hard disks came out. It's a marketing gimmick. No mystery to it. Caveat emptor.
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Not really Sylvan. It's always been that a K was 1024 bytes and at the same time the entire industry has loosely used the term K. Everyone knew what it really was, but the rounding was just convenient, since the error was trivial. The marketing claim you suggest above would actually work in the consumer's favor. A kilo byte is 1024 bytes, but according to your statement above, it should mean 1000 bytes. You're actually getting 24 bytes free from the manufacturer. No marketing scam there. Same thing as you scale up in size. BTW, I know you probably just screwed this up, but a megabyte is 1,000,000 bytes - rounded. As to the available space - well that's a formatting issue. The drive does indeed contain the space as advertised, but formatting takes up some of it leaving you something less.
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Mike Marlow wrote:

Uh, no, he didn't screw it up. That was my original point with my crack that, when someone tried to correct my original "k" joke, that they should tell it to my hard drive manufacturer.
Forever, in computer science, 1K (kilobyte) has been 2^10 bytes, or 1024 bytes. 1M (megabyte) has been 2^20 bytes, or 1K * 1K, or 1,048,576 bytes. 1G (gigabyte) has been 2^30 bytes, or 1M * 1K, or 1,073,741,824 bytes. There are good reasons for these odd results, having to do with the binary system computers use internally.
When hard drive manufacturers first started selling hard drives, they "rounded down," and advertised drive capacities as being on the 10^x scale. So, an advertised "50 megabyte" drive that a computer scientist would expect to have 52,428,800 bytes of storage space really only had 50,000,000 bytes of storage space. Back in the 50 megabyte days, nobody much noticed.
Now, hard drives are much larger, and the error is, too. A new, "250 gigabyte" drive that a computer scientist would expect to have 250 * 1073741824 = 268,435,456,000 bytes. But the HD manufacturer sells you a drive that actually holds 250,000,000,000 bytes. That's where most of the quoted vs. actual difference goes, and why, if you put in a "250GB" fresh drive, your computer will tell you it's a 232GB hard drive, even before you put a filesystem on it. It's not "overhead" or OEM controlling, or any of that stuff. It's that, if you look on the fine print of the HD box, there's a little asterisk that says "we consider 1GB to 1 billion bytes." This is not true of other types of computer memory; for example, when you buy "1 GB" of RAM for your computer, you're getting storage for 1,073,741,824 bytes. If you bought a "1 GB" hard drive, though, it'd have storage for 1,000,000,000 bytes.
Finally, a topic in this newsgroup I actually know something about! :D
-BAT
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Yup - my background also.

I've never seen the asterik, but I've never looked for it. There is overhead on a fresh drive though that does eat into the capacity. There is a low level format that is beneath the level of the operating system. Then there is the filesystem you're refefring to. I guess I'm not familiar with today's marketing practices, but it used to always be that the unformated drive capacity is what was advertised and that was before the low level format - what we used to call the hardware format. Then you put the filesystem on top of that and lost even more capacity. Today you put microsoft products on top of that and lose all of your capacity...
It's easy enough to figure the real capacity though. Number of bytes per sector multiplied by the number of sectors, and the number of cylinders. I suspect if you do this on any disk drive it will not come out to an even MByte or GByte count.

It is a rewarding feeling, isn't it?
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Mike Marlow wrote:

Since we went from MFM to IDE, nobody low-level formats anymore. Now that the controller doesn't have to have intimate proprietary knowledge of the drive, you don't need to low-level format. In fact, on most machines, you can't, anymore. What you're saying was true a long time ago, but it's not the reason for discrepancies, anymore. See this page from Seagate, for example, on "Discrepancy Between Reported Capacity and Actual Capacity,"
http://www.seagate.com/support/kb/disc/tb/capacity_measure.html
which says, among other things, "Unfortunately there are two different number systems which are used to express units of storage capacity; binary, which says that a kilobyte is equal to 1024 bytes, and decimal, which says that a kilobyte is equal to 1000 bytes. The storage industry standard is to display capacity in decimal."
See also, for example, this stat page on a random Seagate 160 GB drive:
http://www.seagate.com/cda/products/discsales/marketing/detail/0,1081,577,00.html
If you click the "capacity" link on that page, it sends you to:
http://www.seagate.com/products/discselect/glossary/index.html#cap
Which says, "Capacity is the amount of data that the drive can store, after formatting. Most disc drive companies, including Seagate, calculate disc capacity based on the assumption that 1 megabyte = 1000 kilobytes and 1 gigabyte00 megabytes." So, they're explicitly saying that it is a post-format size, so that's definitely not the issue. The issue is that they have a definition of "gigabyte" that is completely different from the rest of the industry, including the sizes reported by the computers that use the drives.
Which was my point, when someone lectured me that a "K" is always 1024 - it always is except when it's not. :)
-BAT
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We went from MFM?
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Er, yeah, in the 1980's, friend.
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... failed attempt at humor - or you were ducking as that one went by. You had to be ducking because it wasn't clever enough to have made it over your head on its own.
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Had the MFM! What did I miss on the IDE and should I bring a friend?
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This is incorrect. All drives must be low-level formatted, the IDE drives are now formatted at the factory. SCSI drives can be low-level formatted in the field, and often are to change the sector size (for mainframe systems) or other media characteristics .
The low level formatting divides a track into multiple sectors. There is some capacity loss in each track as a result of this (inter-sector gaps).
High-level formatting (e.g. DOS Format command) places a filesystem on the media (to store directories, free space lists and file metadata) further reducing the available capacity.
Disk space is allocated to files in fixed size quantities, from 512 to 8192 bytes per chunk depending on the OS and filesystem. A lot of 100 byte files will waste 412 bytes per file (so you could realize perhaps only 20% of your stated drive capacity before "filling it up").
Stated drive capacities are best considered approximate.
scott
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