On 13 Jan 2004 04:59:05 -0800, snipped-for-privacy@swt.edu (Conan the Librarian) brought forth from the murky depths:
Verily!
I disagree. BUILDING ONE, as we did, is a better first shave, especially with a Hock blade in it. Learning how to use it as you build it makes it even better.
The Veritas L/A shave would be a better second shave.
And who needs a third?
-- Vidi, Vici, Veni ---
As the user of both, I disagree. The less fussy Veritas model is far and away the first choice. After that, if you just want a project, you can build anything you want.
I agree with you completely. I can make most anything work (I have a Buck plane that works very well) but these things need new parts made and re machining on others. Not worth the effort.
I would agree with this assessment. As a newbie it would be much easier to use the Veritas until you get the hang of what spokeshaving is all about. Then you could build various Guntershaves for different needs (i.e., a small one with a sharply-radiused toe for getting into tight inside curves, etc.)
Oh, and Larry, as for not needing more than two shaves -- maybe I could get by if I woodworked like you do (i.e., making a project every year or three).
Chuck Vance Just say (tmPL) Heh. :-)
On 14 Jan 2004 04:56:12 -0800, snipped-for-privacy@swt.edu (Conan the Librarian) brought forth from the murky depths:
I hold to my total immersion theory and maintain that the learning experience heightens the overall delight of these animals. YMOV.
Ye of little faith! I've already completed one project so far this year. What are you talking about? And I'm getting ready to do another large one. After becoming sick of it, I'm going to cover all the ugly stained ash in this new house with a nice coat of pure white paint.
P.S: No, I didn't stain the crap. It came that way.
---------------------------------- VIRTUE...is its own punishment
Yep. F'rinstance you could tip the "ears" of your round-nosed forward a bit to favor a natural "bite" rather than half-turning your grip as you do on the Veritas. I carve spoons, and keep one permanently set for flat, one for round. Safer than a drawknife, and damn near as fast.
When was it started?
Larry,
How is that bowsaw coming along . G,D,&R
On Wed, 14 Jan 2004 16:24:31 -0700, "Alan Bierbaum" brought forth from the murky depths:
Hey, hey, hey, none of that, sir. It's happy in its box on the shelf. Some shelf out there in the shop.
---------------------------------- VIRTUE...is its own punishment
Yes, it O does V. :-) I don't regret having made my first Guntershave as a learning experience, but it wasn't until I made my
*second* one that I really got everything right. Someone who doesn't use a shave a lot might not have had the patience and/or need to work on the second one like I did. They might be better served by simply buying one that can be set up and working beautifully within minutes after opening the box it came in.Then if they find that they like the things, they can build special-use shaves to their heart's content. (I'm sticking to my story, too. :-)
Which year is that? :-)
Hmmmm ... so that will be an improvement?
Chuck Vance
Good advice. And as for the shave versus drawknife -- one of the things I learned from John Gunterman was that the shave is supposed to be a finesse tool; the drawknife is for stock removal. As much as I like John and have learned from him, I find that with the right shave (properly set up), stock removal is a breeze. It doesn't hog material like a drawknife, but it's easier to use, and there's almost no chance that you will remove too much stock or put a nasty gouge in your work.
And now to come full circle, the new Veritas #151 shave would be an excellent tool to use for moderate stock removal. :-)
Chuck Vance
On 15 Jan 2004 05:06:07 -0800, snipped-for-privacy@swt.edu (Conan the Librarian) brought forth from the murky depths:
You're right. The people who need plans for a pointy stick would surely be better served by buying a premade shave. I forgot. I only -wish- they'd try building one since it's a great experience.
2004, suh.
Unfortunately, yes. I tried refinishing a couple doors and even a good stripping and clearcoat didn't improve their looks. Paint is also a lot cheaper than replacing $2k worth of ugly carpeting (next on the agenda) or a grand on wood/hardware for cabinets to brighten up the kitchen and living room. Somehow, I don't think bleaching the old ash ply would make it look decent, either.
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stock removal. .... I find that with the right shave (properly set up), stock removal is a breeze. It doesn't hog material like a drawknife, but it's easier to use ...
The one exception is working with green (wet) wood which tends to clog up the spokeshave. Also, I've got a couple of smaller, thinner bladed drawknives that allow for finer work.
put a nasty gouge in your work.
I find that using the drawknife with the bevel down gives me more control and has less tendency to dig in.
I think you're being a bit hard on folks, Lar. I do pretty well making pointy sticks without plans (or at least I am able to draw up my own plans :-), but I'm not so sure I would have done very well making my Guntershave without having some prior experience with shaves and how they work. Let me re-phrase that: I still could have *made* it, but I'm not sure I would have been able to tweak it to get it to perform well. Heck, as it was, it wasn't until my second wooden shave that I really got it down.
Chuck Vance
What brands, etc. do you use?
I've read folks who recommend using them exclusively that way. I've also read that you should double-bevel the things (or at least put a slight back-bevel on the off-side). Any thoughts on that?
I'm still new to drawknife use (my last project was the first time I've really spent much time with it), so I'm open to suggestions on getting the best out of the thing.
Chuck Vance
Chuck -
The reason people double bevel a drawknife is to get it to cut "out" as well as cut in.....with one flat surface, you lose the ability to change the cut direction without prying...
If you think of a carving tool - you want a clean entry AND clean exit - hence the rounded bevel facing the wood...
When using a drawnife for rough shaping - bevel up is ok.... for finer work with the same knife, bevel down will give better depth of cut control...
Cheers -
Rob
Rob,
Nice explanation/analogy, thanks.
I'll try that on my next project. I've read people who say they can get a surface from the drawknife that's as good as any a shave produces, and I wondered how the heck they got that. I managed to do pretty well on my last project, but it took imparting quite a bit of "English" to the tool as I was taking a slicing cut.
It just seemed so much easier with a shave that I gave up on the drawknife after a while. :-)
Chuck Vance Just say (tmPL) I guess I really do need to practice more with the things.
On 16 Jan 2004 05:21:44 -0800, snipped-for-privacy@swt.edu (Conan the Librarian) brought forth from the murky depths:
Of course, but that's called "learning". I popped my shave cherry on the purkleheartless Guntieshave in a total wreck of a shop using a few hand tools and a mechanic's vise with no prior shave experience. It's a shamelessly artsy-fartsy (not beautiful) thang, but it works! Isn't that how toolmaking works? You build something, find out you wish to do something a different way, then build another tool that way...only to find out that you want something else different after seeing the way the new tool performs? Tools are living things, just like our styles of using them. The interaction between us, them, and the wood is the fun part.
Tweaking is an advanced art, not a newbie thing. One doesn't tweak (except by chance) until they fully understand the tool, the technique, and the expected outcome. Let's hope nobody expects absolute perfection "first time, every time." My iron binds just a bit when seating, an angle resulting in a 0.002" difference between sides, due to being hand fitted. I left it that way after testing it because it turned out to be so very handy. The right side is the hog and takes off a 0.003" cut. The left side is a fine smoother at 0.001". Since I don't use the whole blade width at any given time, it works wonderfully. I later tweaked it to open up the throat and allow the curlies out more easily.
I can either leave the blade out a bit or take to the LVT carving drawknife for deeper hogging off of wood.
- If the gods had meant us to vote, they'd have given us candidates. --------------
While I can't speak for the new Veritas spokeshaves, I just recently received a Veritas low angle spokeshave which cut like a dream straight out of the box.
I've had no prior experience with shaves other than seeing them on the wall in my Dad's basement workshop.
I'm currently using the shave to put a smooth surface on some mahogany feet for a project. It did a great job of cleaning up after the bandsaw.
Hope this helps.
Paul
I'll go along with Paul on this one. Veritas tools are good quality, and if you aren't used to using a spokeshave it makes a lot of sense to get one that will work out of the box unless you are a natural with tools. I picked up a HF shave a while back to play with, i hadn't used it, got too many other good ones, but since I found a use for it I decided to see if it would work. Nope. I changed the angle of the bed on my grinder, flattened it and sharpened the blade. It works now, but I had to take a pile of metal off the heel of the bed before the thing would cut. Word to the wise. Dave in Fairfax
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