Refurbished Unisaws

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Local dealer is selling "factory refurbished" Delta Unisaws with the 50" commercial Beisemeyer Fences, model 36-L31X-BC50 for $1299. They look like new, but only have a 6 month warranty.
Is the Unisaw still worth having, or would a Grizzly 1023SL be a better choice. Although I own many Delta tools, I haven't been very happy with the last few Delta products or their customer (non) service as of late.
Are the handwheels durable and heavy enough to give the mech a nice feel? Or have they cheaped out and gone to aluminum or (shudder) plastic handwheels? Are the trunnions the same as they used to be? Do they still use that overpriced proprietary motor mount?
Anyone bought one of these, any caveats?
Thanks,
Greg G.
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of course
or would a Grizzly 1023SL be a

IMHO no.
Although I own many Delta tools, I haven't been very

Been through a lot with the transition after the B & D purchase last October.

Handwheels are cast iron with heavy machined steel tapered handle
Cast iron Trunion design has not changed since the late 1940's except for adding stock in areas to minimize breakage during shipment.
Same motor mount.

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Frank Boettcher said:

You don't happen to work for Delta/PC? Tell the truth now... ;-)
Greg G.
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Used to. Retired in March. That is the truth.
My recommendations are based on what I know goes into the saw. Also based on personal experience that gave me a good view of the processes used to manufacture chinese based woodworking machinery. The processes and the reality of their statistical capability.
If you can get a Unisaw at a reasonable price, even refurbished, it is normally going to be better than a chinese alternative. Most refurbished Unisaws do not come from dissatisfied customers, but as a result of minor freight damage, warehouse damage or distributor resets.
And I would hurry. Trend indicates that at sometime in the future, all woodworking machinery will come from China. Very sad in IMHO.
Frank
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Frank Boettcher said:

I thought so... ;-) That's OK, however. I have a shop full of Delta stuff - along with a few Jet, and a couple Dewalt pieces. The blue Borg used to carry Delta, and I bought a fair amount of it there - and at Highland Hardware. But they have begun to push some horrid house branded stuff called Tradesman - what a bunch of Bad Chinese Crappola!

It IS the classic woodworkers saw. I just fear that Delta is riding more on their reputation rather than quality these days... They are most certainly not the only company doing this - it's a tough marketplace - but I hate to see it happen. Damned bean-counters and Wall Street driven decision makers are ruining this country. Not to mention idiot consumers who can't judge quality and shop only for price.

That's what the vendor claimed - Not returned customer units, but defunct dealer returns. But aren't the newer tables cast in China?

Sadly, it's looking that way... We are losing it to so many other countries. And when we lose all of our manufacturing capabilities, we lose the ability to defend our way of life.
JMHO,
Greg G.
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No. The table will either be from a foundry in Sweetwater, TN machined by the fine people in Tupelo, MS, or from a foundry in Waupaca, WI, machined by a subcontractor in North Alabama. Depending on the time frame of the machines original manufacture and whether the table was replaced.

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Frank Boettcher said:

Well, it's good to know that "something" is still made in the USA. There is so darned little of it anymore.
</RANT ON>
I grew up in the electronics industry, and watched as it deteriorated to it's current non-existent state. Plants closed nationwide and moved to Mexico and Asia. Eventually the names were sold off to Korean, French, and Chinese companies - there are none left.
I still have work clothes made in the USA, ragged and full of holes, because I refuse to buy Chinese textiles, jeans and tennis shoes. And these idiots who pay $75 for a sneaker with a "star" endorsement aren't helping - same crappy Chinese shoes that cost $4.00 to manufacture. Wall Street loves it, I don't. As a nation, we are digging our own economic grave. The rich aren't concerned - they've found a new source of slave laborers that don't sue, demand heath care, environmental stewardship, or decent salaries. While the ranks of the poor and unemployed just keep swelling.
8,600 US companies have been sold to foreign interests in the past 10 years for $1.3 Trillion. The US imported $617 billion more than it exported in 2004. This money acquired by foreign countries is not used to buy our merchandise as we manufacture very little that other countries want. They are using it to buy many of our major companies like Chrysler, Amoco Oil, Arco Oil, Citgo - in addition to entire industries - 69% of the movie industry, 81% of the cement industry, 100% of the TV manufacturing industry, and 8,600 other major American companies in the last 10 years.
That $617 Billion equates to approximately $1.25 Million per minute flowing into foreign hands 24 hours a day / 7 days a week. In October, the deficit rose to $59 billion, about $1.1 billion more than in September.
I can only hope I live long enough to see the world stabilize on a level playing field - before China (and others) have ALL of our capital and we deteriorate into another has-been, third world country.
Can't happen here? Right - History reveals a different reality. Many an empire has fallen in the shifting sands of time... Misplaced National Pride, Arrogance and Denial isn't helping one iota.
Those 'fine folks' in Tupelo, MS, along with millions around the country, are losing their jobs to outsourcing, and don't have much in the way of realistic alternative employment. Jobs at McDonalds and Holiday Inn just don't cut it.
</RANT OFF>
Thanks for the info,
Greg G.
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The first are only responding to the second.
But then again, consider Toyota. <G>
Toyota is a case where most of the product line costs more than the competition, but generate a real sentiment of getting what you pay for. Comparing a Corolla to a Cavalier, a 4Runner to a Trail Blazer, a Tacoma to a Colorado, a Malibu to a Camry, and a Prius, to well... NOTHING, it's very easy to see why one company is growing in leaps and bounds and the other is dying. One pays engineers, the other pays marketeers.
We'll never know if companies like Delta had stuck to their quality guns, and occasionally showed some fresh ideas and innovation, if the purchaser would have stuck to them.
Companies like Grizzly and Jet have not only built cheaper products, but in some cases, more innovative tools at increasing levels of quality with better end user support.
Compare old imported iron to the current offerings. It's all kind of like comparing a '75 Corolla to a new one. No matter if it's cars or tools, consumer markets are moving targets.
Barry
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Ba r r y said:

Not necessarily. I look for things that will last - for eons. If I can't find quality, and have to buy cheap crap - then I go directly to the source. Why support a lethargic firm and it's overpaid CEO and marketing department when it does not innovate, but only rests on it's past successes - successes that usually resulted from a lack of competition.
These days, however, in an attempt to squeeze every dime out of each sale, so that greedy investors can quickly collect huge dividends for essentially doing nothing, they close the local plant and move it overseas. Does this result in a lowering of the price? Not usually, just greater profits. This short sighted mentality is destroying our economy - whether originating from investors, CEOs, or politicians.

Yup.
I find it interesting that, for instance Delta, has sold basically the same Unisaw for 40 odd years. They change the handwheels, paint color, advertising BS - but the product hasn't changed substantially. They stand frozen like a deer in the headlights, fearful of making any substantial changes, for fear of loosing what reputation they have left. Instead of boldly forging ahead to improve the product through simple creative thought. Leave the basic mechanism alone - it works. But update the dust collection (Dewalt), improve the off switch and it's location (Jet), improve the horrific guards and splitter assemblies (numerous aftermarket companies) - or God forbid - do something radical like improve safety (SawStop). Cripes, those cast iron molds and metal bending machines must be paid for by now. Innovate - or someone else will.

See? I warned you...

Targets. Hmm - I wish I could get away with using them as targets. ;-)
I bought a blown up '68 Toyota back in '74 and rebuilt the engine for my sister - long before anyone considered foreign import cars a threat. I could tell we were in trouble. If they hadn't been so damned ugly, they would have been more of a threat. But they have fixed that nicely, Thank You. Incidentally, that '68 Toyota ran for over 300,000 miles, and finally died in 1986. Never gave a minutes trouble until then.
Later,
Greg G.
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Interesting you pick Toyota. Many of their cars are built in the US too. As is some industrial products like forklift trucks (I've bought 4 of them). My plan was to "buy American" but the American brand had imported engines and the foreign brand was made in Kentucky so that idea had no merit. In side by side comparisons, Toyota was the preferred truck by all that test drove them in our plant.
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The fact that they're built in the US, does that mean that the construction materials are of higher quality or the assembly methods are superior? Perhaps both? Considering that it's owned by Toyota, what's to stop management from making sure that both these aspects of construction are the same as might be done in their overseas plants? ~ cheaper make?

The same questions apply. Did they prefer them because of construction quality, assembly quality or perhaps both?
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wrote in message news:ZC39f.5009

I think he was indicating that the quality remains high despite the fact that they are built in the US. Edwin was commenting on Barrys comparison of Japaneese Owned products to US owned products. Edwin pointed out that many Toyotas are built in the US. I think the Japanese products are superior regardless of country of origin because of engeneering and QC. I do not doubt that the US can build a great product as long as the design is great.

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My point is that although we like to buy American, some foreign makes are superior. So superior that they now justify putting assembly plants in the US. EVERY country is capable of making junk or making a quality product. It is the management philosophy of the company that makes the difference, followed by training and quality control To stay in business, a company has to make a profit. To sustain sales, they have to make a product people want to buy. While I've never owned a Japanese car, there are a couple of my list to check out for my next purchase, probably next summer. It may be another nail in the coffin for GM as most of my cars have been for many years.

Ease of use and operability too. Toyota has the best view through the mast when driving forward, a big plus. Buying forklifts is worse than buying a used car. The two salesmen were fiercely competing down to the last minutes. I had one in the conference room and the other called twice trying to better his deal. When both trucks were in our plant for test use, each salesman pointed out why his was better in complete contradiction to the other. One has a high air intake, the other low. Each says the other sucks in more dust. One has controls low, the other high, each says his were less tiring to use and more ergonomic.
We went from one truck to two, then to four in the past six years, but the real price negotiation was for the first. We maintain the same price level. They make very little on the truck sale , but they make money on the quarterly service for years.
--
Ed
http://pages.cthome.net/edhome/



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I think the real reason for building plants in the US is to avoid the rediculously high import tax. IIRC the Acura that my wife and I bought in 1990 stickered for about 14,500. Had there been no import tax the sticker would have been closer to $10,000.
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wrote:

That was part of the point.
Toyota has been building Tacomas since 1991 in Fremont, CA. Get this... They use a shuttered GM plant. <G>
The factory, known as NUMMI <http://www.nummi.com/ , also builds the Corolla, the Pontiac Vibe, and a car that gets exported back to Japan and not sold at all in North America.
Toyota also has an interesting method of shipping cars built on the west coast to the east coast via ship. The ship comes from Japan full of Japanese-built Lexus and Toyotas. Vehicles bound for the western US get dropped off, and US built cars destined for the east coast are loaded. The ship is making the voyage anyway, with the Japanese product, so savings is obtained by not shipping vehicles by truck or rail across the country. The same ship carries US built cars back to Japan.
When I bought my last truck, I needed to order it. The salesman called me during the wait to tell me it was "on the boat". I truly thought he was pulling my leg until I investigated it.
Barry
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Frank Boettcher Wrote: > On Sat, 29 Oct 2005 09:38:47 -0400, Greg

> future,

Fwiw, it would be in error to presume China cannot or does not produce a quality product. It would also be in error to presume all product that comes from China is quality. Same for Taiwan, where most (all?) cabinet saws are at least in some part now made.
Its hard to talk about made in without getting into politics. Anyone that watches the global political and economic landscape is aware there is a serious problem with Chinas robust and stable economy, global distribution network, securing deep-water shipping port around the world, her buying of gold on the international monetary market, and our trade deficit with that country. It affects not only our natl security, but global security as well. China wants to take over the world and she is now well placed to do so economically, and thus improving her chances militarily.
Personally, I boycott anything marked made in China, been doing so for most of two decades, but its getting harder and harder to get around.
--
joe2


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joe2 wrote:

About a year ago we needed a toaster. They range in price from $8.00 to $250. The only one not made in China was the $250 Dualit from England. I could not justify the extra $200 so I had no other choice.
--
Ed
http://pages.cthome.net/edhome/



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Edwin Pawlowski said:

I hear you - we faced the same situation very recently. Our trusty old US made toaster oven finally gave it up after 20 odd years, and I couldn't fix it due to parts unavailability. Looked high and low, but could not find anything made outside of China. Ended up paying too much for a crappy GE Toaster Oven from China that I fear is going to burn the house down. I hate it - it's crap. But what choice did I have?! None.
I wore ragged jeans for years before the seams literally left my ass hanging out in the wind because the last US manufacturer (Wrangler) moved from the US to China - and I refused to buy their product anymore. I finally broke down in a moment of weakness and bought a pair, and they sucked! You can blame Wal-Mart and other economic pressures for that.
Underwear? Used to buy Fruit of the Loom - when they moved to China, I stopped buying them. I still wear underwear, full of holes, that were Made in the USA. But I don't know what I'm going to do this winter - I fear they won't make it another winter... I guess an alternative is to go Commando... but it sure is cold.... brrr....
Greg G.
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Well, you could take a trip up to see us in Canada. We've got original home grown fur polar bear underwear. Guaranteed down to -50F. And if you're really lucky, you might find one or two 4" bear claws still attached to the underwear. Also guaranteed to make sure you wake up quick when dressing first thing in the morning.
<g>
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Upscale said:

Sounds like you had company that night, and attempted to don the wrong furry thing the next morning. And there is one thing I *don't* want near my genetic jewels, it is a resentful 800lb bear and a sharp set of 4" claws. Nothing could be worse after a 4 bear night, eh?...
But seriously, (if that is possible at this point), I don't think polar bear underwear would be very comfortable in the SE US. It's not THAT cold... and would most likely look like I had a severe sphincter malfunction. <g>
Man, has THIS drifted off topic!
Greg G.
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