Ping Unisaw - Toe'd out tablesaw rip fences

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"Some people prefer to have the fence angled very slightly so that the distance between the fence and the blade is minutely greater (between 1/64 in. and 1/32 in.) at the back of the blade"
-Mark Duginske
"Tablesaw Methods of Work", Jim Richey, Taunton Press, 2000, Page 29, Paragraph 1.
Note that Mr. Duginske refers to 1/32-1/64" as "minute". Not .0001, not .001, or even .005, but .0156 to .032. Possibly a fat, well-hydrated gnats ass? <G>
Barry
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On Thu, 29 Jan 2004 01:20:57 GMT, B a r r y B u r k e J r .

Barry:
Some people prefer to immolate themselves as a protest to current political situations.
I prefer to do adequate stock preparation that leaves me with something that I can feed into a tablesaw that has a fence set dead parallel to the blade.
Yer's in wooddorking.
Thomas J. Watson-Cabinetmaker (ret) Real Email is: tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet Website: http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1
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wrote:

As do I. _Straight_ stock rips as nice as, well, anything I can think of right now. I'm just in the mood to yank Mr. B's chain. <G>
He seemed to wonder in another thread where people got this stuff, so I decided to pass along a reference.
Barry
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In rec.woodworking

Interestingly enough, I just read the Beseimeyer and Incra fence manuals available online. Both suggest aligning the fence parallel with the miter slot, not suggesting any splay. On the other hand, none make any mention of tools or dial indicators and simply suggest you eyeball the thing in place.
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On 01/28/2004 6:22 PM, in article
opined:

If your blade is properly aligned to the miter slots line up the fence with the miter slot. Pressing you index finger nail against the fence move your finger down until you feel it is flush at the infeed side. Repeat at the outfeed size. I prefer mine to just catch at the outfeed side which equals less than .005"
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wrote:

I don't use the slots for anything, preferring to make my crosscuts using only the fence. Since I made my living cutting more sheetgoods than solid stock, therein may lie the rub - or, the lack of rub - depending on how you look at it.
I don't play games with saw setup, or alignment between the plane of the blade and the saw. I want that to be parallel. Anything other than that introduces a geometry that is not conducive to the production of stock with parallel edges.
Please don't assume that I don't run a fair amount of solid stock through the saw with the same setup. I do, but the stock is prepped prior to being ripped to width - with the intent that the rip will produce the finished edge for glue-up.
Introducing runout into a machine is counterintuitive and counterproductive.
I don't have much of a problem with Dave Fleming wanting to run the back end of the fence a little bit away, but the theory is poxed.
By the time that the stock gets to the tablesaw it should have already been dimensioned and stabilized.
I'm trying to run finished cuts on that tablesaw and don't want any slop in the process.
Thomas J. Watson-Cabinetmaker (ret) Real Email is: tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet Website: http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1
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<humongous snip of great dialogue>

through tablesaws with that damn old "delta" style fence you had to do everything you could to insure a clean rip. Not exotic woods just things like Sitka Spruce and Doug Fir or Alaska Yellow Cedar in 2 inch or more thickness, S2S1E. Now the old Oliver or Tannewitz or Moak or Northfield with that middle mounted fence were no problems what so ever. But when saws like Delta, Walker Turner, Davis and Wells started appearing in the boatyard mills it definitely was a learning curve setting them up to cut a nice glue line rip for mast making. And that was where I was taught the Bicycle playing card trick. Just as the guide blocks on a big 26" or more bandsoar were set the thickness of a cigarette paper away from the blade. Recall all the trouble of setting up a shaper before the toothed cutter head came along? Balancing the blades, using a DI to set up the distance from arbor for depth of cut? Sheech why why you young'uns don't know how easy you have it.
<yeah time for bed ya soused old faht>
Goodnight All and Be Well Tales of a Boatbuilder Apprentice http://pages.sbcglobal.net/djf3rd /
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On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 20:21:56 -0800, Dave Fleming <> wrote:

OK Dave, I'm going to fess up to something but I don't want you to spread it around.
My current GooneyFence (I've owned three different ones) has a belly in the middle of it. I'm fortunate enough (stoopid enough) to own a Starrett 48'"Straight Edge ( and a 72" one, but that's another story) and when I lay that bad boy onnna GooneyFence, there is a rocker that is about the thickness of yer card trick. This is a shabby damned thing to admit to but I've used that belly to pretend that I set the fence up parallel to the blade, knowing full well that the fence had a "built in" kick out of about yer card tricks thickness.
I'll fess up to something else - I ain't ever known a GooneyFence to be dead flat, as measured against them Starrett Straightedges. All three had their peculiarities.
Ya know, when ya get down to the point where yer using feeler gauges to measure the outta plane, and ye've run out of the thinnest feeler gauges that ye got, it's time to call it a day.
Still, I set that fence to the point where the centerline of the measurable (barely) belly is right across from the centerline of the sawblade, and from there - That's the centerline - GottDamnit !
I reckon that this gives me a relief of some, not measured by me, thickness.
Again, I get the setup as parallel as I can - but I know that it can never be truly parallel, only measuring to a point, and that, if the belly was in the other direction - I'd have a hell of a problem.
I kinda think it's funny to listen to WoodDorkers try to think in units of measurement that are reserved for our machinist brethren. They are orders of magnitude off of what really matters in WoodDorking.
Still, I'm down in the trenches with them, trying to squeeze a gnat's ass outa something that don't deserve it.
Thomas J. Watson-Cabinetmaker (ret) Real Email is: tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet Website: http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1
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In rec.woodworking

Exactly, and a TS Aligner is nothing but the most expensive thinnest feel gauge you have.
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About 20 years ago one of the car magazines ran an article from one of their regulars about his trip through North Africa. At one point he watched some locals setting up an engine rebuild in which they measured the ring gap with a ruler. Of course, their gas topped out at about 68 octane so high compression wasn't an issue. I figure that I make enough mistakes without messing up on machine setup, so dead square it is. YMMV, especially if you're from North Africa. Bob
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Thank You Bob, for causing me to fall out of chair at work... I'll laugh about that for days..
(I don't why it's funny, it just is)
Bob Schmall wrote:

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In rec.woodworking

I've never used .005 for a fingernail. Back when I built motors, we said if you can hang a nail on a ridge in a cylinder, that was a .020 ridge. I just mic'd my index finger nails. They were .022 and .027. If you figure they are rounded on the ends, microscopically, the edge would have to be at least half that distance to hang your nail, otherwise it would skip over it. So I'm thinking if you feel it butt with your nail, you're greater than about .012- .015.
Close enough for govt work in any event.
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For what it is worth, eyeballing is accurate down to ten-thousandths of an inch. A sheet of notebook paper is 4-5 thousandths of an inch and nobody has a problem seeing that. Remington Arms for years hired men to straighten out shotgun barrels in a factory with no artificial lihgting in that particular roon. Seems that they were made to use their eyes and sunlight to check the barrels. It does take patience and taking care to do it right; many of us are not willing to take the time or concentrate that much. I used toi owork in QA and after 6-8 years, you could instantlu look att he insulation on a piece of MTM, ot THHN and tell with a second or two if the insulation was 12 thousandths of an inch or more. Just takes practice and attention little details.
wrote:

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Bruce wrote:

But do they suggest using boogers and snot to check alignment? Does either admit that you can make fine furniture with dental floss and shards of glass?
Answer that one monkey boy.
UA100
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Tom Watson wrote...

Isn't immolate themselves redundant?
g, d, & r
Jim
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The more I read Duginske the more I wonder.
UA100
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wrote:

Ya know, and I know that you know this, so I'm saying, "Ya Know", fer other folks:
The people who write these books are just guys. They may have a book contract but that doesn't make them geniuses.
The more knowledge that you get in any given area, the more that you think that the common references are a joke.
They become a fine place to begin, but a terrible place to wind up.
Thomas J. Watson-Cabinetmaker (ret) Real Email is: tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet Website: http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1
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I never could understand setting the fence wide at the back. It sorta makes sense if there were no waste... But if your waste is being pulled into the back left side of the blade because your fence is not feeding your wood straight into the blade, what have you accomplished?
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On Thu, 29 Jan 2004 04:40:20 GMT, "Leon"

I always wondered the same thing and am on a quest to figure it out. <G> I've noticed that perfectly parallel fences work great most of the time, especially with a top notch rip blade. In these cases, both the work and the waste are cut perfectly. Other times, usually with combination blades, like the WWII, a slight toe out works wonders with the cut quality. A perfectly parallel fence leaves blade marks on the work, the slight toe out cleans up the work, but puts more blade marks and maybe an occasional burn on the waste.
I don't know WHY this is true, but it is in my experience with several saws with plenty of blades. It is perfectly repeatable with solid and sheet stock. In fact, I was able do duplicate the condition on my contractor's and cabinet saw at the same time, side by side. The saws had wide variations in fence quality, horsepower, etc... The contractor's saw was as fine tuned as they get, with a link belt, PALS kit, cast arbor washer, tube sand on the legs, etc...
I swapped the same blade from saw to saw. The blades were (2) different Freud combos, a General 50T combo, a Freud Glue Line Rip, a Systematic rip, and a Forrest WWII. All blades are sharp, clean, and in excellent condition. Both saws exhibited the same results when changes were made. We also tried it on my buddy's PM66 and another Jet CS.
Does have any thoughts on why I found the above to be true?
Barry
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On 01/29/2004 4:25 AM, in article snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com, "B a r r y B u r k e J r ."

It is cheap anti-kickback insurance, that's all.
.005 clearance at the back to reduce the chance of the stock catching the back of the blade.
We are not trying to land Neil and Buzz at Tranquility Base, ok?
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