Electric fences?

[T i m]

Hi all,

Mums neighbour mentioned that it was quite noisy in her back garden last night as there was a fox (or foxes) trying to get to daughters rescue rabbits that live in Mums back garden.

The hutch / run is a commercial jobby with a large square wired in run at the bottom and a hutch half the size of the run on the top, accessed by a ramp on the inside.

I don't *think* a fox could get in as the wire mesh is pretty strong and the frame and staples fairly new.

Apparently, along with the sound of the fox crying in frustration, the other noise was the rabbits 'thumping' the floor of the hutch (it sounds like a nailgun). ;-)

So, assuming that now the fox knows there are there (well, the are indoors tonight) it might come back for another go ... plus thoughts of similar in the future, does anyone here who has experience of electric fences or anti fox protection have any tips for us please?

Googling around it seems that to deter a fox you need between 3 to 5kV and I was thinking of either running some wire round the hutch on standoffs (so the rabbits couldn't get to it from the inside).

If I was to protect the top, would I have to also provide some earthed wires and would (potentially) dry concrete provide a good enough earth on the ground in the first place?

I could (and still might) attach some stronger galv steel mesh to the outside of the cage parts (the existing mesh is on the inside of the frame) but that might not deter them from trying and annoying the neighbours (and pissing off the rabbits).

Any electric protection could be on some PIR's so it would only arm when movement was detected outside the hutch and even dusk to dawn?

Cheers, T i m

I might rig up a spare CCTV system round there just to see if they come back (the neighbour also complained that mums PIR flood lamp was going on and off (it is set very low and points away from their houses so it was only incidental light)).

[Richard]

Save a lot of time and effort, let the fox have a snack.

[Broadback]

Sadly foxes are not satisfied with a snack, they will kill them all and take away what they need.

[ARW]

That makes them almost human.

[ARW]

PIR and an electric fence? Forget it. Ring fencing around the whole rabbit pen that is on 24hours a day is needed if the pen is not secure.

[Adrian Brentnall]

HI Tim

We have similar situation - with us it's the chickens that the foxes are after.

Foxes aren't daft - we found that an ordinary cattle fencer attached to a piece of the 'electric' fencing ribbon about 8" off the ground, on insulating stand-offs outside the run around the chicken-wire mesh pretty soon convinced the fox to go and raid somebody-else's henhouse.

Took one of our dogs three goes to work it out though.... he never was the sharpest knife in the box!

Adrian

[harry]

Foxes will dig under fences overnight. The run needs a wire mesh floor, or if too big for that, a bit of the fence wire turned outwards horizontally along the ground. (buried preferably). They can jump a six foot high fence.

[Tim Lamb]

In message , T i m writes

Foxes are opportunists. Chances are it will look elsewhere tonight.

Don't assume they only hunt at night.

Cheapest electric fence is single strand with woven in conductors. The horse world use tape because it is more visible. For a lot more money, you can get electrified sheep netting. Foxes are good jumpers: 4' or so.

I think commercial fence energisers are 6kV .

Don't know about ground wire. Most livestock have at least 3 feet on the ground when in contact.

[Brian Gaff]

I'd be more worried about the foxes digging down well below the bottom of the fences if any area of it is on soil. Normally electric fencing is pulsed at a very high voltage, but current limited so it cannot do any harm. You often find a kind of conductive tape stuff as well. I have had shocks off them but apart from a curse they seem to do no harm to us. I guess its due to the voltage since there is no real earth return of such.

The trouble with foxes are that if you remove the ones in the immediate vicinity, there are now so many another lot move in in a few months.

One side effect of the pulsed fences can be electrical interference though, as effectively you are putting a long aerial not a pulsed high voltage spike, so ticking noises happen and this can cause break up of digital tv or noise on radios nearby.

Brian

[Brian Gaff]

If you are feeding the foxes and many people do that is why they come in the first place! Brian

[T i m]

Ok.

I may not have explained it properly but it might not make any difference ...

My question was really about their fully enclosed, wood framed, square mesh wire (not chicken wire) in-filled high level hutch on a similarly constructed ground level ground floor 'run', all standing on concrete.

I'm pretty sure no fox could open nor force their way into this structure but I was initially looking to provide some anti-fox interest-deterrent. The same logic as spraying a cat with water etc?

The primary reason for something that might quickly dissuade a fox is because of the resultant noise (fox and rabbits stomping) and it annoying the neighbours.

Now, it's quite possible (I'm only guessing) that that fox (those foxes) had already given up as no one or thing sent them on their way, but we put the rabbits inside the house (in a temporary run / hutch) to avoid any issues for now and before we rig up anything else (be it a CCTV / intruder system possibly with remote activity alert (this is round my Mums and she's fairly deaf) or electric defences etc).

Now, in addition to this hutch / run on the concrete (which also has a larger modular steel boundary / patio then can be have access to if the weather isn't nice) plus they have a bigger open topped modular steel fenced area on the grass that can be moved around (and different shapes at the same time because of it's modular 'panel' nature).

Whilst we had considered the security of this open run on the lawn, Mum is generally about when the rabbits are out on the lawn run and (FWIW and things may have changed now) never seen a fox in the back garden in the 50 years she has lived there.

If this fox risk is now increased it may be that we have to build a large rigid run for the lawn and could easily have a perimeter electric wire barrier (I can 3D print all sorts of insulated standoffs etc) that could protect down close to the ground (to defeat digging) and further up the sides and over the top (run infill mesh could be grounded).

Cheers, T i m

[Richard]

[T i m]

Hi Adrian. ;-)

Well, they are Canidae aren't they. ;-)

Yes, my sister lost a pair of runner ducks to foxes. They managed to slide open the fairly heavy (and not smooth running) wooden lid of their bedroom area. ;-(

That was the though here Adrian. I watched a Youtube video yesterday where someone had put some electric fencing around a vineyard to deter foxes (and other animals) and the foxes were jumping over it and straight into the vines. So they put netting over the vines beside the fence and they still jumped into it but couldn't get any further so bounced back out and went elsewhere

You do get them. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

[T i m]

Understood.

And or 5000V on a wire or two. ;-)

They / it would have to have to have done that to get into Mums back garden in the first place!

I've had an alternative / additional thought for the outside / day run.

To build the rabbits a secure 'bolt hole', a heavy (1" x 8" sawn pine?) wooden box (bunker) that has a rabbit sized opening in the front going straight onto a right-angled baffle and then another rabbit sized opening at either end to give access into the main 'box'. It could have small (10mm) viewing / ventilation holes around the sides and a latched removable lid to allow us to get them out.

The thought is that rabbits successfully defend themselves from foxes in their burrows / warren so a synthetic one might do the same?

These three rabbits seem to be very fast, are pretty alert and have good eyes and ears (all part of being a prey animal I guess) and we have seen them attack each other and magpies and wouldn't want to be on the end of that ourselves (especially when you see what they can bite clean through).

The idea was that as long as the path between the entrance to the box (that could have a tube added) was only navigable by the rabbits they should be able to look after themselves?

I think rabbits can nearly turn back on themselves so that they can turn round in their burrow? Whilst flexible I'm not sure a fox would be quite as good and probably wouldn't want to commit to something like that with no clear way of escape?

Cheers, T i m

[Jonathan]

An electric fencer needs earthing to complete the circuit. It often is the steel rod that it comes with.

Jonathan

[T i m]

Well they would be disappointed it they did anyway as they indoors. ;-)

Understood.

Ah, makes sense.

Yes, I have since seen various styles and designs of such fencing with wires threaded within. Even especially for keeping rabbits in or out.

And more it's been suggested.

I saw a tester that went up to 10kV so that makes sense. A chary I saw suggested to deter a fox it needed to be between 3 to 5 kV. (it was lower for some animals).

Sure, the issue was more of 'what about concrete' that might be less conductive than typical 'earth / soil' ground, even when 'dry'?

The energiser units seem to range from about 50 quid on eBay to several times that for a more 'commercial' one (often with dual power supply options). I might ring around and see if any of the Agri / Equestrian suppliers (thanks for the tip) have a second hand one they want to get rid of cheap? I'm about to check out the diy options. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

[T i m]

Thanks for that. It adds some specific detail to my generic thoughts. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

[T i m]

And whilst that would be pretty easy on the lawn, I'm not sure a ground rod in the soil under the concrete would provide a sufficiently good electrical path when the concrete is very dry?

However, it looks like my though's re a combination of live wires over an earthed mesh (the rabbit hutch / run itself) aren't unreasonable so that should do it. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

[T i m]

Understood. See my additional thoughts for a 'rabbit bunker' for when they are out on the lawn. ;-)

Understood.

Apparently more used with horses where they need to see it easier.

Likewise (especially when a kid). ;-)

Or current available in the high voltage supply.

That was my concern and why it might be 'about time' we provided some sort of defence solution. I think they have been out like this (open topped run on the lawn during the day) for a couple of years now.

I wondered about that (and some energiser units boast a wire length of

120km!) but it looks like the voltage may ramp quickly up and down so may help reduce the radiation of electrical noise?

Cheers, T i m

[Richard]

YVW. Should your need to deter other insurgents like, perhaps wolves, or bears, rabbits etc.