Paslode Nail Guns - China

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World Traveler wrote:

...
I'll agree w/ most of the treatise except for the generalization that implies essentially no variance between high and low ends of the spectrum in both countries.
Overall, US productivity is still one of the world's highest, but that is achieved by mechanization in the main. There is a skill level that is variable within all work forces, worldwide. China/India/Pakistan are no different in that regard than the US.
There is a definite problem in the US that political rhetoric gets in the way of solutions more than in controlled economies/governments. That this is wholly bad is a conjecture to which I'm not prepared to accede. (The form, not the result, that is).
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Y'think? Especially as it applies to production or factory labor? Or is the whole skewed by the office worker's "productivity?" Isn't it all GNP $ / workforce #?
How do they figure an item manufactured in China or any other place? No question that the value added (or just taken) favors the importer/distributor. Have a feeling that this may be some damned lies converted to statistics.
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wrote:

[snip]
Heh. A few years back my neighbor gave me a ration of shit for "not buying American" when I traded in my Canadian-assembled Oldsmobile for an Acura...made in Ohio.
Lee
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wrote:

Wrong on both counts. Every body is capable of building quality and trash. I have seen an equal amount from just about every where.

Lowest cost yes, but a a quality that the public is willing to put up with or settle for.
The cost of doing business in

Yeah. Low cost of labor by those willing to do the work.

It does not require that kind of skill to do repeated assembly.
It pays for high-quality steel. Probably not $30 worth of steel unless the steel was manufactured by over paid workers.

I am betting no more than a low quality American screw.
Country origin has absolutely no factor over resulting quality.
It > pays for a clean environment. (Of course it costs less to manufacture products

Still THAT has nothing to do with over paid workers.
Until we start blaming ourselves for our own problems in pricing and quality, we will remain in this situation.

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Then IMO either you haven't been looking very hard, or your ability to distinguish quality from trash is impaired. Do you *seriously* contend that the average quality level of tools made in China and India is on a par with those made in Germany, Canada, or the U.S.?

Speak for yourself. *Some* of the public, yes. Even *most* of the public, perhaps.

Wake up. A lot of the stuff coming out of China is produced by prison labor.

There's a lot more to it than just assembly-line work. Somebody has to maintain the production machinery. Somebody has to inspect raw materials coming in, and finished products going out.

The company SWMBO works for recently started - and then abandoned - an effort to establish a subsidiary in China, to produce goods for use _in_China_, not for export. Among the reasons they abandoned the project was the inability of Chinese steel producers to consistently supply steel that met their specs. They have not had that problem at their U.S. plants. I can't imagine that their experience is unique.

And I am betting that you haven't been paying attention to where the screws you use are made. I can count on my fingers the number of times I've ever, in my life, twisted the head off of a screw that I know was made in the U.S. or Canada.

Yeah, right. I bet you drive a Yugo, and think that it's just as good as a Mercedes.

Just pointing out that there are *other* reasons for the low price of Chinese products besides the disparity in worker salaries. You apparently think that's the only reason, and that's just not true.

Unfortunately, *you* are a large part of that problem, with your obstinate and ridiculous belief that the quality of Chinese-made products is on a par with those made elsewhere. It's quite apparent that, like millions of other Americans, you can't tell the difference.
-- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt. And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?
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wrote:
-----------much snippage---------------

labor.
<lurk mode off
Personally I have no problem with prison labor. Better to put them to work than laying around as they do here on our tax dollars.
<lurk mode on
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Kevin wrote: ...

...
Problem isn't the ethics, it's the trade distortion of essentially free labor.
Same problem in the US if one company were to be allowed the advantage of not paying their employees while their competitors weren't allowed the same opportunity.
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Apparently you're unaware that much of the Chinese prison labor force is composed of political prisoners, not actual criminals. If that doesn't bother you, it should.
-- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt. And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?
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[snip]

[snip]
Look again. The commercial aircraft you travel in probably has parts from China, built to FAA certification. There are FAA certified aviation production facilities in China, and FAA certified repair stations which draw customers from airlines around the world because of the competency of their work. The computer on which you read this msg probably was at least partially built in China. How's that for differentiating quality and trash?
It isn't the ethnicity of the worker that establishes the quality of a product, it's the design and management decisions made that guide the worker, and the q.c. and management oversight of the production process.
What China has been lacking in is enough capital to build a modernized production base. Much of that capital is being received now from overseas or from counterparts in Taiwan. With enough capital investment, the current Chinese economic boom is just the leading edge of the wave. Regards --
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That's actually a pretty scary thought.

I frankly don't believe that, and won't, unless you furnish proof.

Yes, I'm sure it was, and that probably accounts for the premature failure of various components. The overwhelming majority of failed boards and power supplies that I've seen were made in Communist China. In my experience, those made _anywhere_else_ are much more reliable.

Who said it was? I have _no_problem_ buying tools, electronics, or whatever, made in Taiwan, where the workers are of identical ethnicity to those on the mainland - and the goods they produce are of _markedly_better_ quality.

Yes, indeed - all of which seem to be very sadly lacking in most of the stuff that comes out of the PRC.

No, what China has been lacking, and continues to lack, is an economic system that rewards quality and punishes its absence. And until that system appears, they will continue to produce crap.
-- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt. And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?
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[sniip]
The commercial aircraft you travel in probably has parts from

[snip]
Fair enough. Here's proof, from the FAA's own web site. Go to http://av-info.faa.gov . Enter country: China and add any major city and you'll see a list of FAA certified repair stations. For example: Shanghai:
CEA HONEYWELL AIRCRAFT WHEELS AND BRAKES REPAIR AN NO 24 LONGJUA AIRPORT SHANGHAI, 200232
COLLINS AVIATION MAINTENANCE SERVICES SHANGHAI LTD GENERAL FACTORY BUILDING 4, FLOOR 1 389 GANG AO ROAD SHANGHAI, 200131
TAIKOO XIAMEN AIRCRAFT ENGINEERING CO LTD SHANGHAI ROOM C3-120 & C3-121 PASSENGER INTERNATIONAL TERMINAL SHANGHAI,
Guangzhou:
GUANGCHOU AIRCRAFT MNTC AND ENGINEERING CO LTD GUANGZHOU NEW BAIYUN INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT GUANGZHOU, 510407
GUANGZHOU HANGXIN AVIONICS COMPANY LTD NO. 2 KEXIN ROAD TIANHE DISTRICT GUANGZHOU, 510665
plus Xian, Beijing, etc.
And of course, there's HAECO, which has had previous contracts maintaining USAF C-130s.
As for aircraft parts, Douglas started using Chinese components made in Shanghai about 25 years ago, starting with nosewheel landing gear doors. There's a quarter-of-a-century of a track record with FAA certification in that location alone.
Your knee-jerk response to questions of Chinese competency indicates you've got some other agenda --
Regards --
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Reference to "Xian" should be "Xiamen". Xiamen is a major repair station; Xian is the Chinese flight test center.
The growth in Chinese aviation is phenomenal. In 1983 there was one national airline; in 1986 there were 40, and 102 new major airfields. To staff these, China is sending as many students as possible to overseas schools, especially locations such as Embry-Riddle.
All of this is being driven by the resurgence of Chinese capital markets policies and the profit motive. None of this has anything to do with woodworking, except that if you visit Chinese specialty stores you'll find solid, well-built, (if not technologically advanced) woodworking tools that Chinese craftsmen use to turn out extraordinary wood products.
And you've completely danced around the real question -- if Chinese tools are so inferior, how is it that Chinese craftsmen do such good work???
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World Traveler wrote: ...

...
Not necessarily...simply being uninformed is more likely the culprit.
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Hardly. The "culprit" is my desire to not spend what little money I have on things that don't last, combined with my reluctance to purchase the products of slave labor.
-- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt. And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?
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wrote:

draw
their
Therein lies the problem. You can demand, or you can seek. Which is more productive?
We demand, they seek - and work.
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wrote:

draw
their
You're right not to believe it. I build commercial aircraft here and know where this stuff comes from.

trash?
of
those
whatever,
the
stuff
system
appears,
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CW wrote:

...
Well, I wouldn't be at all surprised if there aren't at least <some> subassemblies/parts being produced in PRC. While I don't know the current status, there was a big hub-bub made in Wichita over one of the agreements Boeing made w/ China on one of the major sales a couple of years ago that included transferral of some portion of the manufacturing to China. Where that agreement stands today I'm not certain, but if it isn't occurring yet, I expect it will before long...
The demise of Boeing from the apex to the current status as becoming simply an assembler of outside-produced parts is certainly a poster-child of the overall situation.
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[snip]

[snip]
That statement won't stand up to inspection. Prisoners do work in China, -- just as they do in the U.S.!! -- but
it's a gross overstatement to say that "a lot" of the exports are prison-produced. Prison products are sold in the local marketplace to raise money to operate the prisons -- to that extent they are self-supporting rather than dependent upon tax dollars.
Things operate differently in China and it's a mistake to take single examples out of context. For example, standard procedure in a hospital is for the patient (or family) to provide the meals; the military grows its own crops; cities and provinces get involved in commercial ventures as profit-making enterprises. Everyone is producing and looking for that edge to make themselves more profitable. The Air Force operates commercial vegetable farms and a commercial airline (China United Airline); Chengdu city was a partner with Hughes to develop the cell telephone network -- for Chengdu city.
But my chief point is that the concern about products made by prison labor is waaay overplayed -- if you were serious why wouldn't you worry about U.S. license plates and street signs?? Regards --
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China, --

raise
How benevolent. . .

own
edge
Does this include wholesale stealing of intellectual property as well....?

for
Hmm - must be a bunch of nice guys. . . no chance of rampant corruption in China I take it. . .
BillyB
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One major difference is that a substantial fraction of the prison labor force in China is people who were imprisoned for expressing their political or religious beliefs. We don't do that here.

It's also standard procedure for the government to bill the next-of-kin for the cost of the bullet used in executing a political prisoner. So what?

Pretty much standard operating procedure in societies that have been impoverished by decades of Communist rule. Everybody's scrabbling to try to make a yuan, because they have to eat.

How comforting. What's your point?

I don't worry about US license plates and street signs because: a) those products are not in unfair competition with private industry in the consumer marketplace; b) prisoners in the US are not slaves, they're actually paid for their labor; and c) prisoners in the US are in jail because they committed crimes, not because they criticize the government or practice a religion that is not officially approved.
-- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt. And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?
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