OT: Health Care Debate Framed by Lobbyists

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"J. Clarke" wrote:

The ones who are already paying for it in the form of higher premiums to cover the costs of those who are not insured but rely on emergency room care.
Lew
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Yep. My insurance even covers that - an 8% surcharge on hospital bills (in NY) to cover those who can't pay.
And that really means that with the reduced rates I get as part of a large group, the individual who pays higher rates because he only can get a private personal policy, pays even more. While I like paying the reduced rates, it isn't fair for people like my coworker, who has to pay COBRA rates for insurance.
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Han
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It's FREE. just read the newspaper and they'll tell you. Medical care for everyone at no cost. Its going to be just great.
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wrote in message

Yeah, yeah ...
LOL!
Some here in Jersey are looking forward to less taxes now they have elected a new governor. Sounds good. Hope my real estate and schooltaxes would go down too. Not holding my breath. Now that apparently some legal stuff is hopefully nearing its end, the Radburn assessments are estimated to go down, and that'll help my budget. But again: seeing is believing.
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Han
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Have you replaced your legislature yet? If, it might not go up as fast but nothing is going down.
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Ed Pawlowski wrote:

from? the deep South?
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Han wrote:
don't have any idea what they are voting for?

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Rob Leatham
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BILL! Doesn't that concern anyone that people casting those votes : don't have any idea what they are voting for?
Sure they do. You can bet they know their major contributors - personally. You act as if legislators have no contact with his big-money donors. What is that, a blind trust? Baucus has reportedly taken $10 million from the insurance industry going back some years. Do you expect people to believe that he doesn't know where the language in a pro-insurance piece of legislation comes from? Who's being naive now?
Dave in Houston
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On Sun, 15 Nov 2009 05:55:12 -0500, the infamous Greg

So, issue seasonal tags for lobbyists, too, wot?
-- When we are planning for posterity, we ought to remember that virtue is not hereditary. -- Thomas Paine
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NOW you're talking change I can believe in! Just make certain it's a looong season.
Greg G.
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Greg G. wrote:

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http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/15/us/politics/15health.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&th&emc=th
Absolutely! Who knows more about an issue than the people or firms who live with it every day. Who has more insight, a company with literally thousands of man-years of directly applicable diligence and effort or a first-term congressman whose major life experience is with alfalfa dryers?
Think about your local congressman. Do you want him setting the tariffs on hydrogenated yak-fat? Does he know squat about the ramifications of the "Law of the Sea" treaty?
The "problem" you cite - if there is one - is with the congressmen, not the interested party providing what it believes is crucial information.
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HeyBub said:

The "problem" with K-Street (a metonym for influence peddlers in DC) is that they do not disseminate information that is in the public interest, but rather their own. If congressmen knew what they were doing, and weren't looking to become employed by these same peddlers of influence after being ejected from office, perhaps they would view them with more skepticism. As it is, they are simply buying influence over laws and federal funding from morons hoping to profit at public expense. There are many other sources for the information you mention that are unbiased - but there's no money in that.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/21/AR2005062101632.html
Greg G.
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Now, now. You are underestimating the capabilities of congressmen to weigh what is good for the nation. Phooey on you to doubt their good intentions.
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Han
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Greg G. wrote:

Yes, this is common. First, have you ever see an ad for a product touting the superiority of the competition? Even our criminal justice system is adversarial. Each side presents its most compelling case and the job of the participants is to sort out the good from the bad. The evaluator(s) should also take into consideration the source of the information given.
Secondly, I suggest there IS no source of unbiased information. Anywhere.
Thirdly, I stand by my position that the problem, if any, lies with the congressman who cannot tell the difference between fact and fantasy or is unwilling (or incapable) of either weighing the facts or the reputation of the proponents.
Blame simply cannot be attached to the lobbyists.
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This time I fully agree.
Now how is a voter to react in the middle of a legislative session? The a*h* congress critter is there for the rest of the term.
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Han
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HeyBub said:

That's why the "participants" make the salaries/benefits they do. Theoretically. But it's apparently not enough for many. Ethics are nearly nonexistent in many of the players. And that includes judges, lawyers, congressmen, preachers, media, and your favorite corporation.

Not much. But it does exist. Even I'm not that cynical. ;-) If there were no unbiased sources for truth there would be no affordable technology or science or physics.

And by extension, the voters who put them there. Yet I consider it improper that if a man does his job with integrity he makes what the taxpayers allot for the job. But if he exercises poor judgment or outright ignores the facts he is rewarded on the sly for doing favors for those who desire them. IMHO that is a systemic defect which harms us all. Remove the in-your-face temptation and most would relent.

Of course it can. It's called morality, decency, honor, honesty. Are they the only ones at fault? Of course not. If lobbying didn't work, people would stop paying them to shill. I'm not picking on any one lobbyist, I'm picking on one facet of the system as it exists as a whole. I could sell non-existent timeshares, bogus stocks, or crack on the street corner. But I don't. Not from fear of prosecution, but because I consider it bad for society - the one I live in and hope will better itself. Additionally, lobbyists are paid huge sums of money and where do you think these funds come from? You and I, every time we buy a product from a company who employs a lobbyist. Most know full well what they are doing and yet exercise no self-restraint in the pursuit of the almighty dollar.
Ignorant voters, venal politicians, agenda driven lobbyists and media. I understand what you are driving at, but at this rate we'd be better of with a King. At least you'd only have one candidate to vet. ;-)
Greg G.
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Greg G. wrote:

Meep!
Read a book once wherein the protagonist was the wife of a professor of mathematics. Her observation of the faculty and students was interesting. In those disciplines where truth was empirical (math, physics, engineering, etc.), neither the students nor faculty paid much mind to how they dressed. Their socks didn't match, the colors clashed, and so on.
In those disciplines where "truth" was a matter of majority vote (English Literature, History, Renaissance Poetry, etc.), everybody wore a uniform. The men wore tweed jackets with leather elbow patches and the women wore basic black with a string of pearls.
The fine arts people had the worst of both worlds: "Truth" was equivocal (Mozart or Maler?) and their clothes were tatters.
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HeyBub said:

http://www.wdtn.com/dpp/news/strange/boston-school-suspends-students-who-say-meep-1258133451438
Geeks?
Authoritarians?
Hippies?
;-)
Greg G.
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Greg G. wrote:

http://www.wdtn.com/dpp/news/strange/boston-school-suspends-students-who-say-meep-1258133451438
I recall reading somewhere that some observer of human nature or other had observed that "scientists are boring people with interesting ideas, artists are interesting people with boring ideas".
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J. Clarke said:

I'll buy that - as a generalization. I should be able to quote the source, as it sounds familiar, but memory fails me. And I suppose that makes authoritarians boring people with boring ideas. Sounds even more reasonable. :)
Greg G.
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