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Yes, I didn't expect that a subject would understand. Guns aren't just to deter individual criminal acts, they also deter governmental criminal acts. Don't worry though, we'll bail you out yet again, next time.
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And be 3-4 years late again, no doubt!
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The part of this you're missing is that -- currently -- your government is willing to tolerate subjects who disagree with it. What would you do if that changed, and the authorities began to forcefully suppress dissent?
More to the point: what *could* you do?
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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in 1249902 20051119 162352 snipped-for-privacy@milmac.com (Doug Miller) wrote:

And you really think guns would make a difference?
Did the Germans who tore down the Berlin Wall have guns? Did the Romanians, the Czechs etc?
Attempts to justify everyone having a gun are pretty pathetic.
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Yes.
No, they didn't need them. They only did that after they were allowed to.
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Sun, Nov 20, 2005, 8:46am (EST+5) snipped-for-privacy@excite.com (BobMartin) burbled: More to the point: what *could* you do? And you really think guns would make a difference? <snip> Attempts to justify everyone having a gun are pretty pathetic.
I read about home invasions, and hear about them on the news. And, I read, and hear, people saying that if it happens to you, don't resist, and you won't be harmed. But, I also read, and hear, about so many of those same home invasions resulting in unarmed people, not resisting, and being killed anyway by the people invading their homes. No witnesses you see. So, if those homeowners had a weapon in the house, thay might at least stand a chance of getting out of it alive. Sure as Hell beats getting killed by some thug just because he wants to rob you.
JOAT Just pretend I'm not here. That's what I'm doing.
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They sure made a hell of a difference for us in 1776.

At the point that the wall came down, the government had abandoned even the pretense of forcefully suppressing dissent. Prior to that, when the government *was* still doing so, the subjects were of course unable to do anything about it, being disarmed.

See above.

--
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Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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Doug Miller wrote:

Uh, back when the "Evil Empire" was still intact it was pointed out many times that Soviet Citizens were allowed to own rifles and shotguns, ostensibly for hunting. I dunno if there was a limit on ammunition and I suppose that handguns were restricted, but they were not 'disarmed'.
Dunno about East Germany.
Oh, and has been also noted, AK-47s or (more likely) the Chinese knock-offs were quite popular and legal among Iraqi civilians under Saddam Hussein.
I'll agree that an armed populace can be quite helpful as far as overthrowing a dictator, or preventing an overthrow of a legitimate government, but it is plainly not sufficient.
--

FF


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Having seen various reports regarding censure for what British citizens and businesses say; I would dispute that you are free to say what you want, when you want freely in Britain. Your rules regarding what is considered to be "harassing" speech or "offensive" speech -- particularly if one is a business are becoming quite restrictive (not that the statists here in the US are far behind in trying to make that happen -- try expressing principals of Jeffersonian democracy or calling into question some of the tenets of modern nanny-state protectionism on a college campus)
BTW, how are those restrictions on law abiding citizens working out over there? Has it kept the criminal element from being any more dangerous? I understand you've got somebody over there who is now seriously advocating restricting the ability to own pointy kitchen knives.
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Mark & Juanita (in snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com) said:
| BTW, how are those restrictions on law abiding citizens working | out over there? Has it kept the criminal element from being any | more dangerous?
Last night the BBC reported that one female police "probationer" (trainee?) had been shot to death and another wounded in the shoulder by not-law-abiding persons. I'd assume that the answer to your questions are "questionably" and "no".
-- Morris Dovey DeSoto Solar DeSoto, Iowa USA http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html
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wrote:

Yep. Sarcasm is difficult to render in text-only systems. Various reports I've seen indicate that in many instances the criminal element is gaining the upper hand, particularly youth gangs who have no fear of private citizens protecting themselves and little to fear from the authorities since long periods of incarceration are considered "inhumane" and "unjust".
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That was an ordinary armed robbery, something which happens a thousand times more in the US than in Britain. You're getting desperate!
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Sun, Nov 20, 2005, 8:48am (EST+5) snipped-for-privacy@excite.com (BobMartin) doth burble: That was an ordinary armed robbery, something which happens a thousand times more in the US than in Britain. You're getting desperate!
Where'd you come up with that figure? Anything to back it up?
"Ordinary" armed robbery? In Britain? with their strict gon control laws?
JOAT Just pretend I'm not here. That's what I'm doing.
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You missed the point rather badly -- the point being that it happened anyway, despite the strict gun control laws that are supposed to make it impossible.
I've always been baffled by the naivete and/or gullibility of those who believe that gun control laws have *any* affect on the behavior of criminals, who are, by definition, people who _don't_obey_laws_anyway_.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 08:48:58 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm, Bob

There are "a thousand times" more people here, Bob. UK crime rates are actually higher than the US.
Google it. The facts are there. We just went through this a couple months ago either here on on rec.crafts.metalworking. DAGS on that.
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http://www.jointogether.org/gv/issues/problem/global /
This says that gun-related deaths in the USA were 300 times the number in Britain, but the US population is only 4-5 times that of the UK. I admit these are pretty old figures, but a gun killing still makes national headlines here. Another poster here talked about Britain being "disarmed" - sorry but that is nonsense. Hand guns were banned in a knee-jerk reaction to the Dunblane school killings, but the only people affected were legitimate members of pistol-shooting clubs. The general populace have never owned guns for protection - only criminals have guns.
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And, you see that as a _good_ thing? The dangerous people have weapons, and their victims are unable to resist?
I don't see that as an acceptable solution. I want my _criminals_ to be in danger, not the good citizens.
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On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 16:05:43 +0000, Dave Hinz wrote:

Dammit Dave, it's no fun when I keep agreeing with you :-).
But I bet there's a lot of shotguns in Britain :-).
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Larry Blanchard wrote:

no where near as many as there once were
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Yes I do. If there is one word to describe the British it is "angry", especially on the roads, and if every driver carried a gun the M25 would soon resemble the Somme.
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