OT bad experience today

[Peter De Smidt]

Then they're guilty of the same type of hysteria that you've been arguing against in this thread. I'd like to see how one goes hunting with one's dog on a leash.

In any case, you're ignoring the main issue which is different breeds have different behavioral traits, some of which are aggressive in character, and which can only be mitigated by training. Since that's true, then some dogs are inherently more dangerous than others. Given the characteristics that the American Pit Bull Terrier FAQ ascribes to pit bulls, it follows that they are a more dangerous breed than most others. So are mastifs, rottweilers, ... This doesn't mean that people shouldn't own them, or that they don't make good dogs under the appropriate circumstances.

I will add that there are a number pit bulls that come to our dog park. When certain of them show up, everyone leaves. Why? Because these specific dogs have demonstrated their aggressiveness. Sure the owners are idiots. But a cocker spanial in the hands of a poor dog owner is less dangerous than a pit bull owned by a similar person, maybe not always, but certainly on average.

-Peter De Smidt

[Prometheus]

True, but not with nearly as many incidents, for what it's worth. They are a nervous breed, at any rate- but trying to turn one mean seems like it would be a trial. You're a lot more likely to break their spirit first. If I yell at my dog (only once or twice in the seven years I've had him) he won't eat for days. Hardly a candidate for guard-dog at a crack house!

[Prometheus]

I saw that on TV too... it was called "Monty Python and the Holy Grail." :)

[firstjois]

>Excellent site, thanks!

Josie

[Lobby Dosser]

Rick Cook wrote in news: [e-mail]:

Well of course they are. But the Pit Bull is #1.

[Lobby Dosser]

Prometheus wrote in news: [e-mail]:

You never know. I suppose it would depend on the fringe benefits.

[Lobby Dosser]

ann archy wrote in news: [e-mail]:

Saw a neighbor lose a finger to a Chihuahua. We were both drinking home made applejack at the time so he felt relatively little pain. I had a hard time keeping a straight face in the ER.

[Lobby Dosser]

Rick Cook wrote in news: [e-mail]:

I suspect also a considerable lack of nerve endings close to the surface. My former Pit Bull/Boxer seemed impervious to pain. She walked into the kitchen one night with one of the cats hanging from her lower lip by its fangs. All 8 pounds of cat just swaying back and forth and that 'can somebody get this cat offa me' look. She was one of the gentlest dogs I've ever owned, but she was never off the leash off our property and, though she was well trained, if we saw other animals on a walk I literaly tied the leash to my arm. She did not suffer other creatures off the property.

[Lobby Dosser]

Rick Cook wrote in news: [e-mail]:

As you may see in a previous response, I've owned a Pit Bull/Boxer mix and dearly loved that dog. But, I sure as shit would not have tried to socialize her with cattle! And don't know anyone that would.

[Rick Cook]

Which demonstrates that a Pit Bull is a strong, fast dog. However it says nothing about the breed's aggressiveness, which is the point at issue.

Remember my analogy to a powerful shaper.

--RC

[Rick Cook]

Obviously there are exceptions. But the rule is well-nigh universal. Keep any medium to large dog leashed.

Actually I spent most of my message to you responding to exactly this point. To recap:

1) Dog bite statistics show no correlation between breed of dog an aggression. 2) The Alabama Supreme Court found no evidence that some breeds are inherently dangerous. 3) There is apparently no factual basis for your argument that pit bulls as a breed are more aggressive. 4) While different breeds have different characteristics, I think the evidence shows the differences are much, much less than you seem to believe and are in any case not determinative. 5) All that said, pit bulls are large, strong dogs that are quite capable of doing a lot of damage. That means that their owners have a special responsibility to make sure their dog is properly trained, well-socialized and properly restrained. This is true of Rottweilers, German Shepherds and many other breeds of large dogs.

Some dogs are much more dangerous than others. But this owes much more to the training, socialization and temperament of the individual dog that it does to the breed.

Actually cocker spaniels have a reputation as biters as well. But no, a 20-pound cocker isn't as big or as strong as a 40-pound pit bull and probably won't do as much damage if it does attack. But again, that doesn't go to the inherent aggressiveness of the breed.

And keep in mind that pit bulls are enormously strong dogs for their size. They are commonly used in pulling contests and it's not unusual to have a single pit bull pull over 1000 pounds. It's kind of funny to watch a pit bull trying to swim. They have so much muscle they're very dense dogs and they have to paddle frantically just to stay afloat.

--RC

[Rick Cook]

I'm saying any medium to large dog must be properly trained in addition to being socialized with the family. It is not just about 'attacking and killing'. It includes everything from not charging the door when excited to responding to the leash properly and not trying to drag you all over the place, jumping up on people, etc. Above all, the dog has to be trained well enough to be under control at all times.

A dog that challenges other animals or people is an extreme example of a dog in bad need of training. So is a dog that crashes into the door an in effort to get at someone or something on the other side.

Have you ever been around a poorly trained Great Dane or Lab? It's no fun and it is dangerous. I very nearly had my head taken off by a Great Dane when I was a kid because I approached the dog where it was sitting on the grass with its owner. Fortunately the dog was on a leash. I have some friends who had a Dane who was as mellow as you describe -- unless he thought the family's daughter was in danger. Unfortunately the dog didn't have very good discrimination as to what constituted 'danger.' It took some doing for them to train that out of him.

The bottom line is that any medium to large dog needs to be carefully socialized and trained. It's a fundamental responsibility of owning a big dog of any breed.

--RC

[Rick Cook]

Actually it's fairly common to have pit bulls who are fine around livestock. One of my pit bull owning friends likes to work around horses and she has trained pit bulls not to bother either horses or cattle. This same friend had a pit bull who was an obedience champion.

Not all that difficult, actually to train a pit bull. You just have to make sure the dog understands that certain things are no-nos. If you're consistent with them pit bulls are extremely easy to train -- at least according to people who know dog training and have trained many breeds.

--RC

[Rick Cook]

As nearly as we can tell from the dog bite list, bites correlate with the popularity of the breed.

Just a matter of making the dog crazy. It works the same for any dog. Understand, a vicious dog is not a mentally healthy dog and usually shows an exaggerated fear response.

Now if you're concerned about the 'instinctive characteristics' of the dog, keep in mind that a collie's herding behavior is a sublimated version of chasing prey and bringing it down by hamstringing it. In fact I am told that at least some shelties have a tendency to nip (bite) at the heels of running children and it has to be trained out of them.

--RC

[Rick Cook]

That one had learned he had nothing to fear from people on the golf course. Obviously he'd never been hit by an errant golf ball.

Actually, that's the reason people think coyotes are more common in some areas. Not only are they spreading their range, but they've learned they don't have to worry about people in semi-urban or suburban areas.

In all my years in Arizona I've only seen 2 coyotes in the wild. Even when I'm in areas with coyote sign all over the place.

--RC

[J. Clarke]

ROF,LVH. Poor long-suffering dog. But that _is_ funny, especially in light of the prior content of the thread, which would attempt to convince us any dog that had ever even _seen_ a pit bull would eat the cat and look for more.

[George]

Dog charges, target panics, trouble starts. Leash is a perfect way to work on that behavior.

My Australian shepherd was an end-of-leash sniffer, so I had to drag him past tempting domestic foliage while my four-year-old walked the female borzoi who stood taller than he and outweighed him by three. Used to get a lot of strange looks.

Actually he was the epitome of "dog" - if he couldn't eat it or screw it, he pissed on it.

[-linux_lad]

I was in the military (USMC) and we were trained to respond to attack dogs like this:

1) If a dog is charging you, you will be bitten, so prepare for it. Do not run and do not turn your back to the dog. Force your hand violently into the dog's mouth as he opens it to bite you. Reach as deeply into his throat as possible. 2) The most sensitive and critical component of a dog attack is his feet. Stomp them as many times as possible. A broken foot will terminate most attacks. 3) If you have a free hand, grab a front leg and pull it behind the dog's back as though you were attempting an arm lock. It is easy to dislocate the dog's leg, which will terminate the attack.

Any dog can be dangerous, it's just that there are lots of idiots who consider owning a pit bull(s) to be a reflection of their character and personal discipline. Naturally, since criminals tend to favor the more intimidating breeds, a negative stigma has developed. I don't doubt that the majority of pit bull owners are responsible people, but it certainly seems like there are a lot more stray pits at SPCA than there are Rotts. It might have something to do with the fact that a Rott with good bloodlines can cost two grand ow more. I have a Rat Terrier and two very large Rottweilers. The terrier seems to be the noisiest, rowdiest one of the bunch, even though she only weighs twelve pounds.

just some random thoughts...

--

-linux_lad To verify that this post isn't forged, click here:

[Dave Hinz]

Makes sense. The general principle is sound as well, even though it makes people whine about "you don't have proof he was going to bite you".

Good to know, thanks. At the risk of turning this into more of a debate than it already is, it's interesting to substitute "rogue nation/dictator" for "dangerous dog".

[Robert Galloway]

Why not. The guy I work for has three Rottweilers. Got to be careful around them or they'll love you to death. Great big teddy bears. I can't believe the breed has any inherent evil tendencies. They must be taught. One man's observation only.

bob g.

Stay tuned - someone is yet bound to introduce the Rottweiller